Whole Bunch of Input Requested: AR Pistols as EDC Questions

[The Professor]

<sigh>

Usually, I have a rather long, drawn-out post.  I am rather tired, but still have a lot to discuss on this topic.

While part of me wants to discuss the reason behind this question in-depth, I'm afraid of derailing the thread in a direction I don't really want to go.

Let's just say that I am considering including an inexpensive, but reliable AR Pistol in each of our vehicles for some of the more extreme threats that I'm concerned may arise over the next year or so.  I'm going this route because I want the compactness of an SBR, but don't want the paperwork and hassle of a Form 1 firearm.  Due to the smaller size requirement, I'm going with a .300 BLK with a 7.5" bbl and optimizing ammo and accessories to those limitations and limiting the Engagement Sphere to under 100 yards (realistically, much closer) with a potential for a high number of immediate, primary threats.  This is to be a high profile weapon in case the driver is forced to engage in EVA under extreme duress.

I haven't made the commitment just yet.  This is to be considered merely an exercise that may result in a practical application.

Since these two vehicles cross state lines, I won't be using a suppressor, integral or otherwise.  The pistols will be basic, no-frills home builds most likely on Anderson uppers and lowers with basic grade barrels, BCG's, etc.  There will be no trick triggers, expensive sights, etc.  In fact, one of the most expensive parts will probably be the brace, which will probably be GearHead Works Tailhook 2's for their adjustability.  Mags will be the new Okay 30 rd mags.

They'll have a minimum of 500 rounds put through them before they're put in the vehicles to make sure they run solid.

I'm looking for opinions on a couple of decisions:

1.  Flash can vs. muzzle brake vs. flash hider:  A standard birdcage would do just fine, but considering that the area where I'm concerned these might find use is in an urban setting, I'm leaning towards the flash cans, which would direct sound and flash forward.  This results in a greater muzzle climb and slower recovery, but we're talking close-in/CQB distances.  I also like the fact that it mitigates, somewhat, my exposure to very loud reports since I'm behind the can.  I can also see a benefit of threats on the receiving end catching the brunt of the sound.  The ammo I'm using is premium ammo (SIG's Solid Copper 120gr OTM) with heavily flash-suppressed powder, which has almost no flash from my 9" barrels.

Your opinion: Do you feel the redirection of the sound signature forward would provide enough benefit to offset any reduction in muzzle climb were I to choose a muzzle brake or birdcage flash hider? 

2.  Storage: Like many others, I am wrestling with the possibility that this might be stolen.  Yet, I want it to be in a location that can be quickly accessed under extreme duress and time constraints.  Seldom are there a third or fourth person in my vehicles, so I am thinking about putting these in a "discrete" case on the floor immediately behind the front seats and center console, being covered up with a blanket or something similar.  This case would also hold spare mags.  Part of the reason I'm making this a "cheap" build is to minimize cost in case it's taken.  However, a part of me still has a problem with not putting this in some form of safe.  Can anyone make a suggestion that would increase the security but maximize accessibility under extreme stress?

3.  Anything I'm overlooking?  While I can see the benefits of things such as adding a light, a laser, etc., I still want to keep it simple.  Do you think this oversimplification is a good idea, or should I just bite the proverbial bullet and put them on, anyway?

Yeah, I know. . .this is a bit off from recent warm-and-fuzzier discussions.  But, I feel we're entering another period of greater potential for physical danger than we've seen in a very long time.

All sane discussions and opinions appreciated.

The Professor

[FreeLancer]

Now you got me curious about your dark vision of the near future.  You can’t leave us hanging like that.  Could you do a separate thread to flesh that out a bit?

[archer]

Just curious, how accurate are you with an AR style pistol? The people i've seen at the range using them can barely put all their shots on paper @ 10 yrds. Sounds like you know that size/style and feel comfortable in a SHTF scenario.

[Alan Georges]

The biggest problem I have with the pistol-with-a-"brace" concept is that their legality is on very thin ice.  I know that there have been several ATF letters, findings, etc. saying things are hunky-dory if you just happen to shoulder one in the heat of the moment, but it takes one change of administrative ruling plus one youtube video you didn't know was being made, and boom, you're in possession of an unpapered SBR.

But it's a great idea for a "more than your Glock" car gun.  They are accurate when shouldered, and have all the other things you mentioned going for them.  Legally though, they just scare the hell out of me.  That's about the only reason I haven't gone this way.

[David in MN]

A lot of this depends on usage. If you plan to shoot from the vehicle I would take any noise reducer possible. I can't imagine shooting an AR pistol in a car.

I would also keep it simple. If you attach a bunch of crap you'll lose mobility in a tight space.

I, like Alan, fear the AR pistol. From my perspective it immediately negates all my work with an AR as I will immediately put my left hand over the muzzle (assuming I accidentally shouldered it). It would take lots of training to overcome this and that would be illegal. Beyond that, even if you stay on the legal side it only takes one cop who doesn't know the law at the range to ruin your day and cost you thousands.

I'm curious to see what others think.

Yeah, I know. . .this is a bit off from recent warm-and-fuzzier discussions.  But, I feel we're entering another period of greater potential for physical danger than we've seen in a very long time.

I unfortunately agree. We have had what seem like violent mobs of every possible cause imaginable instantly erupt and do things like block freeways and throw rocks at pedestrians. My wife and I have a "no-go" map of Minneapolis and as we track news it grows. Things have actually cooled off this summer (not typical) but a couple bad events and things could get real bad real quick.

[The Professor]

Now you got me curious about your dark vision of the near future.  You can’t leave us hanging like that.  Could you do a separate thread to flesh that out a bit?

These are my opinions and fears based solely upon what I see, read and hear.  Does that mean they're correct?  No.  But, since part of my responsibility is to provide for my family's safety, I still prepare.

IMO, we are currently in the Calm Before The Storm phase in the US.  For the past ten years, those in influence have seemingly fomented an atmosphere of hate and distrust in the United States.  They have intentionally educated the past two generations in ways that are contradictory to the survival of the species (e.g., Don't stand up to bullies; Do not prepare to defend yourself if attacked; Trust in a centralized, separate authority; Celebrate stupidity over ingenuity and accomplishment; Self-reliance, on any level, is not only to be mocked, but chastised, repressed and punished; Support mental illnesses over recovery; etc.).

I am neither supporting nor opposing any political figure, but. . .we have a President in office that answers to neither party and we are seeing the Political Class having apopleptic fits despite his successes and progress.  They are doing so over a majority of the citizenry (i.e., the Common Class).  They are influencing what I can only foresee as a rebellion, founded upon ignorance.  The Common Class is getting tired of being the Whipping Boys of both the Political and "Enlightened Class."

I have mentioned, in an earlier post about now being the time to  purchase firearms and ammo, a specific window of opportunity.  As it applies to THIS discussion, that timeframe mirrors what I see as a time of great unrest in the US.  Right now, there are HUNDREDS of extreme left-wing politicians lining up to have a chance to see who can out-liberal each other for an opportunity to sit behind the big desk.

I'm guessing the window will start to close, slowly, about January as the Political Class begins ramping up for the next Presidential election. We will begin to hear liberal policies being pushed forward farther and faster than ever before, driven by one-upsmanship on the part of the politicians.  You think it's bad now?  Wait until they get a chance to tell everyone about how much more free stuff they're going to get when the Liberals take over the office.

We already have Antifah, a socialist group which is currently the laughingstock of most sane people, targeting the President as a Nazi.  Hilarious since the term "Nazi" was short for "National Socialist"  (For those who don't know, in German, the "z" is usually pronounced as "ts", so "National" was pronounced as "Natsi-onal," or "Na-tsi" for short).  Socialists fighting socialism.  Hilarious.

The race divide will be broadened even wider than it is, now.  I find great humor and hypocrisy in the fact that Democrats are claiming Republicans are racist when it was Democrats who fought tooth and nail for so many years to keep racist laws and it was Republicans who fought for integration on all social levels.  I actually had to stop my car in Tennessee when I saw a portion of highway dedicated to one of the greatest anti-black Democrat politicians and heard no hue or cry for removal of that sign, yet gangs of people are not only demanding, but defacing Confederate statues and monuments.

But, enough of that.  In my opinion, this country is like a giant bottle of Coke.  It's being shaken and spun this way and that and pressure is building from the inside.  Gangs of angry people are being told it's okay to burn, destroy and steal, just to let off a little steam.

We have a society where people riot when they don't get what they want. . .and they riot when they DO get what they want. . .and it's all being encouraged. 

In my suggested timeline, January will see Liberal Politicians start their bid for the Presidency.  It will begin to grow and be advertised everywhere you see.  For my family and myself, this will be the Yellow Threat Phase ending sometime mid-2019 and going into Orange until around March of 2020.  From March 2019 to December 2020. . .during the peak of election season, I think we're in for some serious civil unrest.

Up to the election I believe there will be riots, both spontaneous and planned.  In the month before the election, I foresee some of the greatest unrest we have ever seen.  If Trump wins re-election. . .well. . .let's just say that I've already primed our kids to be with us at our rural home.  I can see actions that make the Purge movies look like reruns of the Teletubbies.  If Trump DOESN'T win, I still see unrest, but on a lesser, more "I Told You So" punitive/celebratory set. 

If Trump loses, look for an assault on our rights like  you've never even thought possible.

How does this apply to the questions in this thread?

I still have to go about and do my business.  I'm worried about being caught unaware (no one can remain 100% on 100% of the time, S*** happens, sometimes you find yourself behind the power curve) in a situation like the one video I recently watched where bands of people were roving city streets assaulting cars with their bodies, bats, pipes and barricades.  I'm worried of Reginald Denny-like assaults on me and mine, especially after June of next year.

This is why I'm upscaling my personal defenses and why I'm asking these questions. 

I know we're in a relatively calm situation, right now.  There are no real threats to our 2A rights and things seem to be going better than they have been.  Doomsday Preppers is no longer on TV or in the general public/preppers' minds.  Most Conservatives and non-Liberals are feeling pretty good, right now.

I'm afraid that will change.  Within a year, expect to see gun and ammo prices rise.  Within 16-18 months, I expect it to look like May 2012 to December 2013 in the prepper world.  Guns will be hard to find at decent prices and no ammo will be on the shelves with what I fear will be a true and real threat to individuals, as a whole.

That's it, in a rather large nutshell.

The Professor

[The Professor]

Just curious, how accurate are you with an AR style pistol? The people i've seen at the range using them can barely put all their shots on paper @ 10 yrds. Sounds like you know that size/style and feel comfortable in a SHTF scenario.

Well, quite good, especially considering that these pistols are legal variants of the legally-stamped SBR's my wife and I have been shooting for the past two years in 3-gun and "Tactical" matches.

The only real difference is that these are on inexpensive, virgin receivers with comparatively cheap parts.  Anderson Lowers and uppers, budget BCG and barrels, MagPul furniture and relatively inexpensive optics.  If they're stolen or seized, my pocketbook won't cringe as much as if they had been AAC variants.

The Professor

[The Professor]

The biggest problem I have with the pistol-with-a-"brace" concept is that their legality is on very thin ice.  I know that there have been several ATF letters, findings, etc. saying things are hunky-dory if you just happen to shoulder one in the heat of the moment, but it takes one change of administrative ruling plus one youtube video you didn't know was being made, and boom, you're in possession of an unpapered SBR.

But it's a great idea for a "more than your Glock" car gun.  They are accurate when shouldered, and have all the other things you mentioned going for them.  Legally though, they just scare the hell out of me.  That's about the only reason I haven't gone this way.

As of right now, the ATF states that shouldering an AR Pistol originally built as a pistol does not alter the intent or design of the weapon.  A copy of that letter, as long as it's the latest, is in the bag with each of the pistols along with copies of the letters from ATF to Gear Head Works specifically recognizing their Tailhook 2, my preferred brace installed on each of them.

I'll continue this in the next response.

The Professor

[BLACK SHIRT]

I love the idea of an AR vehicle gun. I have this, https://www.extarguns.com , in my truck right now. Cheap and easy to replace yet reliable. I would stick to the birdcage flash suppressor. The AR pistol is damn loud and nothing will mitigate that except a sound suppressor. I dont "secure" mine in anything because I believe if you really need it a "Safe" or other locking mechanism will slow you down. Its locked in my truck and that good enough for me. I carry 2, 30 round mags and a bag of loose rounds with it. If you carry the gun with the ammo make sure you have your CCW and know your State's vehicle laws.

[The Professor]

A lot of this depends on usage. If you plan to shoot from the vehicle I would take any noise reducer possible. I can't imagine shooting an AR pistol in a car.

I would also keep it simple. If you attach a bunch of crap you'll lose mobility in a tight space.

That's where I was leaning.  I'm wanting a legal, compact, and hard-hitting defensive weapon that can be used in tight spaces and hidden much easier if forced to go extravehicular than a larger rifle without having the headache of a Tax Stamp.

I, like Alan, fear the AR pistol. From my perspective it immediately negates all my work with an AR as I will immediately put my left hand over the muzzle (assuming I accidentally shouldered it). It would take lots of training to overcome this and that would be illegal. Beyond that, even if you stay on the legal side it only takes one cop who doesn't know the law at the range to ruin your day and cost you thousands.

As mentioned before, these are pistol variants of a size similar to a pair of legally-stamped SBR's with which we've been practicing for about 18 months.  Before we even entered any competitions, we did a lot of dry-runs and muscle-memory drills to instill in us the necessary physical skills.   For example, when moving your support hand to the handguard, we sweep inwards and upwards towards an angled foregrip which is behind the forward mount of the two-point sling.  And yes, we did start out shooting drills wearing Nomex pilot's gloves.  And Yes, we grabbed a hot can once or twice, accidentally.  Just as with everything else, it takes practice. . .something we are going to increase as time draws near.

As to the "one cop" issue:

I wrestled with this for longer than I probably should have. I am extremely lucky in that I now have a gun-nut A**h*** attorney as a friend as well as not one, but TWO of the "Shooter's Insurance" policies on both my wife and I.

Here's the thing as I've come to embrace it: A municipal, county or state law enforcement officer cannot arrest you on a Federal Firearms Violation.  They can generally do so for state-level violations, though, so you do need to be aware of your city/county/state laws as it pertains to these types of weapons.  Any arrest where your rights are violated will be a major inconvenience.  No one wants to share a holding cell with a hairy-backed guy nick-named "Sweet Meat."  In these cases, a good attorney not only will be able to get you out of jail, but be able to see to it that the settlement from the resulting lawsuit will most likely pay for your kid's education (or their student loan debt).  That's why I keep the copies of the most recent ATF letters in our bags.

That's right now, however. If the decision changes, I'll have to comply and go another way.   As long as the law allows this, however, I will have a fully legal and ATF-compliant AR pistol to fall back on if I need it.

I unfortunately agree. We have had what seem like violent mobs of every possible cause imaginable instantly erupt and do things like block freeways and throw rocks at pedestrians. My wife and I have a "no-go" map of Minneapolis and as we track news it grows. Things have actually cooled off this summer (not typical) but a couple bad events and things could get real bad real quick.

That is my fear, one that is growing day by day.  I wish I could find a link to the gas riot video from Haiti a month or so ago.  Groups were roaming the streets attacking drivers (as if they had anything to do with the skyrocketing gas prices) and attempting to pull them from their vehicles.

With the common use of social media and ever-present cell phones, it's not unimaginable to think that Flash Mobs could easily pop up where I go.

I'm too young to die and too old to get the s*** beaten out of me.  If either situation rears it's head, I intend to fight under the "Tried by Twelve" rules, especially if my family is with me.

The adage of "It can't happen here" is becoming more and more of a hope than a rule.

The Professor

[Alan Georges]

All 100% factually true, Professor.  I have a different legal risk tolerance on the issue, but we live different lives in different places.

FWIW, I've been in a couple of classes shooting next to guys with these shorties, and of course they all had muzzle brakes.  It was brutal, both from the blast and (in one night class) the flashes too.  I'd look at a can, or at least a birdcage.  It'd still be bad enough inside a car with either of those, but with a brake, ugh.

[Chemsoldier]

I dont have a lot of experience with .300 BLK, but I do know shorty ARs in .223 are beyond brutal in a vehicle.  We are talking single round permanent hearing damage brutal.  ARs in vehicles are why God invented rifle cans. If you dont want to run a can (and I see why), I highly recommend stashing active hearing protection for all potential occupants in the vehicle. Eye protection also.  Auto glass fragments can bounce around the interior.

The tactics of being in a soft skin vehicle are considerably different from an armored one. Once there is a ballistic threat, if you get blocked, you need to think hard about bailing and moving to a building immediately. Stopped thin skins are a death trap. So your procedures and crew drills are probably the biggest rep you can do. Two people, working together decisively and practiced may be better than optimal weapons.

All that said, I would say that most likely occurance is theft of you vehicle long arms. The most secure way of holding them doesn't allow easy access. True pistols are way easier to genuinely secure in a vehicle.  Perhaps a pistol optimized for trouble such as a Roland Special style firearm would provide more of what you are looking for with the capability to place it in a more secure pistol box completely under a seat and secured to the seat post. A Glock 17 with 140mm magazines and an RDS would give you over 20 rounds with the ability to hit at greater distance.

[The Professor]

I dont have a lot of experience with .300 BLK, but I do know shorty ARs in .223 are beyond brutal in a vehicle.  We are talking single round permanent hearing damage brutal.  ARs in vehicles are why God invented rifle cans. If you dont want to run a can (and I see why), I highly recommend stashing active hearing protection for all potential occupants in the vehicle. Eye protection also.  Auto glass fragments can bounce around the interior.

I'm one of THOSE survivalists.  All of our eyewear meet ANSI Z specifications, they have for many years.

And yeah, I know all about shooting from, and in, vehicles. Not one of my favorite things.  Sadly, I no longer drive either an up-armored HMMWV or a Ford F350 with hillbilly armor around town.  Not that I wouldn't, mind you, but the wife feels that the Insurance company might consider some of my modifications outside the scope of their protection. 

"Um. . .sir. . .are you really serious about calling this a "Recreation Vehicle?". . ."

The tactics of being in a soft skin vehicle are considerably different from an armored one. Once there is a ballistic threat, if you get blocked, you need to think hard about bailing and moving to a building immediately. Stopped thin skins are a death trap. So your procedures and crew drills are probably the biggest rep you can do. Two people, working together decisively and practiced may be better than optimal weapons.

At this point, I'm leaning on the negative side of taking incoming fire. . .for now.  I'm more worried about going over, under, around or through obstacles.  There was a time and a place that going THROUGH a wall of PO'd people wouldn't make me bat an eye.  Here?  In my home town?  In my home state?  Sadly, that's what I'm afraid of facing.

Here's one of the more recent videos, this one following a soccer match in Birmingham, UK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4mQg0qVBng

Mods: I can't remember if we can post video links here, anymore.  I understand if you have to remove it.

Readers: use the words "People attack car public property" to find the above-mentioned video.

I could also pull any of the riot or flash-mob videos from here in the states as examples.

All that said, I would say that most likely occurance is theft of you vehicle long arms. The most secure way of holding them doesn't allow easy access. True pistols are way easier to genuinely secure in a vehicle.  Perhaps a pistol optimized for trouble such as a Roland Special style firearm would provide more of what you are looking for with the capability to place it in a more secure pistol box completely under a seat and secured to the seat post. A Glock 17 with 140mm magazines and an RDS would give you over 20 rounds with the ability to hit at greater distance.

I considered a similar set of mods to a spare standard carry handgun (in my case either a USP45 or a VP9), but am wanting the enhanced capability of the more powerful cartridge. 

I wrote a longer explanation as to why I am considering this route the other night, but then accidentally clicked back a screen and lost it (!!!).

To review that: My wife and I have changed our primary defensive weapon from AR Carbines in .223 to a pair of legally-stamped AAC PDW 9.5" carbines in .300 BLK.  The reasons are many, but primarily revolve around portability and a much smaller engagement sphere plus reduced sound signature with a legally-licensed supressor affixed.

We've been shooting them in competitions for about a year and a half and have become both quite familiar and comfortable with the round after adjusting to it's peculiarities.

Unlike many others, I'm not enamored with pistol-caliber carbines considering them to be the worst of both worlds (larger, heavier and more difficult to maneuver than a pistol without the penetration or enhanced power of a rifle).  The .300 BLK fits a very interesting niche, though.   One that I think I can exploit as I get older.

As yet, though, the whole AR Pistol is still a Thought Exercise, at this point.  I haven't yet decided either way.  I did have one other consideration. . .that of the Remington 870 Tac 14, but that's another area where a lot of legal concerns come into play.

The Professor

[Chemsoldier]

I think for a shorty (well pistoly) AR for use in a vehicle without a suppressor, you are definitely barking up the right tree with .300 BLK.  My understanding is that the subsonics are no worse than shooting a 10mm auto inside a closed vehicle  which is a significant improvement over a .223.

David Fortier has an article in the latest Be Prepared, the once or twice a year preparedness focused glossy from the same brand as Firearms (formerly Shotgun) News, on using a shorty .300 BLK with a brace.  His was based around the new SIG Rattler AR pistol. 

I am a little more sanguine than some on the brace and legal pitfalls.  Assuming we are all good preppers and carrying pistols greater than mouse guns, I am assuming the "give a d*mn" factor is going to be pretty low if we think it prudent to dig around for the AR pistol rather than going directly to the holstered pistol where you know its exact position, orientation and status.

As I said, the thing that gives me the most pause is theft. Otherwise, right on.  I am kind of amused at the thought of the average car thief trying to find ammo for .300 BLK. 

You are a firearms nut (I mean that fondly), so your firearms loadout should be kind of over the top for a prepper. Enthusiasts can make concepts sing that would be a silly waste for "normal" preppers.  For instance, I should (and do) have a ham radio in my vehicles.  However, I do not need a 7,000 ICOM mobile rig.  Carl or Smurfie on the other hand could probably talk to the ISS with it and it makes sense.  For me a  $350 dual bander is working just fine and pushing my limits.

[Carl]

  The weapon one should have is one that is accurate,powerful,reliable and can be utilized for the task. I don't find a good carbine cut down to a unwieldy handgun as a suitable weapon. Kind od like the JUDGE pistol in .410...many rave about the shotgun/pistol and yet few would call it acceptable for rabbit or squirrel yet give it ATOMIC capability as a self defense handgun...makes no sense to me. A 300 BLK AR in sub-sonic is not quite the equal to a 357 magnum or even 357 SIG and yet is far heavier and over-sized piece of hardware.For vehicle carry,I would stick to a good fitting and sighted carbine as more capable of accurate fire. Just my opinion

[The Professor]

  The weapon one should have is one that is accurate,powerful,reliable and can be utilized for the task. I don't find a good carbine cut down to a unwieldy handgun as a suitable weapon. Kind od like the JUDGE pistol in .410...many rave about the shotgun/pistol and yet few would call it acceptable for rabbit or squirrel yet give it ATOMIC capability as a self defense handgun...makes no sense to me. A 300 BLK AR in sub-sonic is not quite the equal to a 357 magnum or even 357 SIG and yet is far heavier and over-sized piece of hardware.For vehicle carry,I would stick to a good fitting and sighted carbine as more capable of accurate fire. Just my opinion

https://chiefsupply.com/

Well, a couple of things, here.

First off, pretty much everyone that would ride in my vehicle carries a gun on a daily basis.  Me, my wife, my best friend, his wife, our next best friend and his wife. . .yeah, that's pretty much the limit of who rides in my vehicles.  So, I do have access to a proper handgun situated on my hip, as do most of my passengers (though, truth be known, the wives tend to have those purses with built-in holsters.

Second, I wouldn't be using subsonic ammo in the .300 BLK, if I did decide to go with it.  As I mentioned in the original post, the car gun would have a 9" barrel, which is the optimal length for the round.  We've been shooting this almost exact set-up out of a pair of stamped SBR's at matches for over a year.  Using a pistol lower means I don't have to jump through legal hoops when I take it across state lines, since I have a license to carry a handgun recognized in the two states I do frequently visit.

This set up (9" bbl, SIG Elite Performance 120gr ammo) gives us the same muzzle energy as an M4 in 5.56x45 with a 14.5" barrel and about 5% more at over 400m. As far as accuracy goes, with the SBR set up, we're getting 1.5-2 MOA at 100m. 

Comparing the .300 BLK in this format to a proper handgun in .357 Magnum or .357 Sig. . .it's seriously apples to oranges . I can still shoulder the pistol-format like a proper rifle or carbine. I have 30 rounds vs 8-15.  My range goes well out to 200m, if I need it and with a proper optic on it (we've been running the ACOG on the SBR's, but may not on the car gun. . .I don't want it THAT expensive).  Faster reload vs the .357 Magnum with a similar reload time to the .357 Sig.

Basically, I am carrying a well-fitting and -sighted carbine. . .it's just legally considered a pistol because of the hardware.

The Professor