THE HALL

[Gamer]

I, for example, am NOT pleased with this house, location.  I feel it is too vulnerable to attack by water or land.  To vulnerable to natural disasters.  I also think it is too big for our needs.
there are only 15 of us.  Big spaces are modern day luxuries we could not afford to heat or take care of.
I like the garden and animal plans.  Can we keep the animals in what used to be the garage?  People used to sleep in the same room as their animals to protect from predators, 2-legged and 4-legged.  The garage would be close enough.

That's the spirit! speak your mind, we want no yes-men in our group..
As I said at the start of this thread, The Hall is not perfect, but it's better than many I've scouted, and we can tackle any shortcomings by adapting, improvising and overcoming.
You think the house is too big, but the upside is that there'll be plenty of spare rooms for the newcomers who'll inevitably trickle in to join us in the months and years ahead.
As for heating, we'll socialise in the Living Room (see earlier pic) in front of its roaring fire, then go off to our individual bedrooms to sleep alone or with -ahem- company, tucked up snugly beneath the blankets.
For example this is a typical bedroom in The Hall, but if you prefer sleeping with the animals in the garage, go ahead..

[Gamer]

What about communication? Are there any solar panels around (did we get the hydro power working)? Ham radios? Antennas? shortwave listening radios? What is happening in the outside world?  Wouldn't it be a shame if we were living in the 18th century while people 100 miles away have their power plant working in their city with 50 people and 10,000 head if cattle?

Our cities went black when the power went off soon after P-Day so us scattered survivors fell back on good old candles and paraffin lamps. There are probably solar panels around but I for one don't know how to hook them up, so hopefully somebody in The Hall Group will have the knowhow to do it.
As for communications, I'm not a radio ham and I don't know anybody who is. As I mentioned earlier we tried to contact other survivors by driving around our city tooting our horns, and sometimes we'd drive to neighbouring towns and cities in a 100-mile radius to toot, and even do it at night so we could scan the areas from hilltops looking for lights but everything was as black as your hat.
In 3 years we've only managed to get 15 members.
And we've kept our ears open for other people who come to our area to do some tooting, but haven't heard a sausage. Neither have we seen a single plane or helicopter.
Only static comes out of our TV's and radios, so no joy there, not even an official government channel seems to exist to clue us in about the big picture.
Question- how can we find out if there are any other survivors anywhere in the whole country or the world?

[LvsChant]

In three years' time, I would expect some subgroups to have formed into families within the 15.

[CharlesH]

Staying armed is certainly a prudent way to mitigate risk.  It also comes with its own risks that need to be mitigated:  clearing procedures and an understanding of when a round should be in the chamber, keeping the weapon on safe, etc.  Noise  discipline should also be considered.  Practicing our marksmanship too close to the Hall would allow nefarious types to pinpoint us, scout us out, and ambush us.
 
The garden is nice.  I think one acre would be plenty the first year for both food and to begin laying in viable seed stock.  Along with gathering/gleaming wild stock we can keep an eye open for perennials for food as well.  I do like my annual veggies, though,  and I’m eager to find seed and get it growing before it all loses viability with age.  We’ll find stuff that has grown itself,  but a diverse garden is good and we need seed for that.

For communication with others, signage works.  Put up notices along roads well away from the Hall and direct people to another remote location where we could check once or twice a month to see if anyone is there.  The signs need to have a “first contact” protocol for both sides and the protocol should recognize that both sides are going to be initially wary of the other.

[Gamer]

In three years' time, I would expect some subgroups to have formed into families within the 15.

Yes sort of, for example the two under-10 kids sleep with "Auntie" as a substitute mum, but the teenager prefers his own room.
One or two males/females sleep together or pop into each others rooms for "visits" if they're feeling especially lonely, but others like to go it alone, whatever floats your boat..

[Gamer]

Staying armed is certainly a prudent way to mitigate risk.  It also comes with its own risks that need to be mitigated:  clearing procedures and an understanding of when a round should be in the chamber, keeping the weapon on safe, etc.  Noise  discipline should also be considered.  Practicing our marksmanship too close to the Hall would allow nefarious types to pinpoint us, scout us out, and ambush us.

Yes, I think every one of us (except the youngest kids) should carry a gun at all times and be taught how to use it, and once we've learnt there'd be no need for regular firing practice sessions..



As a Brit I know zilch about guns but I think I'd like a short barrel .38 revolver because it's nice and handy, not too big and not too small. And I hear 'volvers never jam, which seems to be a big plus over automatics, what do you and other forum members think?

[Gamer]

The garden is nice.  I think one acre would be plenty the first year for both food and to begin laying in viable seed stock.  Along with gathering/gleaming wild stock we can keep an eye open for perennials for food as well.  I do like my annual veggies, though,  and I’m eager to find seed and get it growing before it all loses viability with age.  We’ll find stuff that has grown itself,  but a diverse garden is good and we need seed for that.

Yes, how long does seed last before it "dies"?
PS- and I've always wondered why old time sailors didn't take seeds and soil trays to sea with them so they could eliminate scurvy by growing veg?

[Gamer]

For communication with others, signage works.  Put up notices along roads well away from the Hall and direct people to another remote location where we could check once or twice a month to see if anyone is there.  The signs need to have a “first contact” protocol for both sides and the protocol should recognize that both sides are going to be initially wary of the other.

Yeah but at this point we should decide whether our current group of 15 is quite big enough for now, or whether we should want any more new members at all for the time being?
As you say, broadcasting our presence to every Tom Dick Harry carries some risk..

[CharlesH]

Yes, I think every one of us (except the youngest kids) should carry a gun at all times and be taught how to use it, and once we've learnt there'd be no need for regular firing practice sessions..

As a Brit I know zilch about guns but I think I'd like a short barrel .38 revolver because it's nice and handy, not too big and not too small. And I hear 'volvers never jam, which seems to be a big plus over automatics, what do you and other forum members think?

 
Not only am I suggesting we learn how to fire them (use them),  but handle them safely.  I’d actually make the latter more a priority than the former.  We can probably all learn to suppress a threat pretty quickly and a few will be better at hitting targets and we will want to encourage that.  But given how few people are still alive, I think the bigger threat is from negligent discharges (the gun goes off unexpectedly).  I’ve seen that happen with handguns, rifles, and even an M240 machine gun.  So safety is critical, and often overlooked in my opinion.
 
Personal weapons will be a matter of choice.  If you like revolvers and are comfortable with the the .38I won’t dissuade you.  Though I may gently offer you some benefits to a .357 revolver, too.  I’d keep a collection and go with what made the most sense for the moment.  Off the top of my head I like the M4, M1A1 with a or 9mm.  I’d never carry more than one unless there was reason to think the threat level was elevated for us.

[CharlesH]

Yes, how long does seed last before it "dies"?
PS- and I've always wondered why old time sailors didn't take seeds and soil trays to sea with them so they could eliminate scurvy by growing veg?

 
Some starts going bad after a season, but not all.  It’s a probability thing.  If we plant stuff now our year 1 yields will be lower than if the seed was fresh, but presumably we will have access to seed and can just plant that much more.  After the first year we ought to be ok on the annuals.
 
Same goes for feral livestock.  Whatever we find now is likely to have never lived with human contact, but the survivors will still have traits that made them valuable for domestication.  We keep our eyes open and start developing the herd we want among the diffent things we find.  I’m partial to finding some milk cows, but feral pigs can keep running wild and be shot/caught (remember noise discipline) as needed.
 
I’d like to try and trap honey bees, too.  I suspect those populations were decimated, but we can try to find and trap swarms and get whatever has managed to survive without human intervention.

[CharlesH]

Yeah but at this point we should decide whether our current group of 15 is quite big enough for now, or whether we should want any more new members at all for the time being?
As you say, broadcasting our presence to every Tom Dick Harry carries some risk..

Agreed,  I thought the group wanted to do that, but it can still be debated.  One thing to think about over our evening conversations is that first contact protocol.  What scenarios are likely for meeting people?  What are some ways we want to handle those scenarios.  What are some procedures to have for when contact occurs?  Etc.

[Gamer]

Gamer quote- at this point we should decide whether our current group of 15 is quite big enough for now, or whether we should want any more new members at all for the time being?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed,  I thought the group wanted to do that, but it can still be debated..

Okay let's debate..
In your post #34 you said- "I think one acre would be plenty the first year for both food and to begin laying in viable seed stock. Along with gathering/gleaming wild stock we can keep an eye open for perennials for food as well. I do like my annual veggies, though, and I’m eager to find seed and get it growing before it all loses viability with age. We’ll find stuff that has grown itself, but a diverse garden is good and we need seed for that."

At the moment our group is 15-strong, so the vital question is how many more people will our one-acre spread be able to comfortably support?

To refresh our memories here's that pic again which gives a rough idea of what one acre looks like (including barbed wire coils round the house which I've added for security)-

[Morning Sunshine]

there was a family in CA (who are no longer mentioned by name on this forum) who grew enough for their family of 4 on 1/5 of an acre.  They did vertical.

I think the big question, before we go on too much further - location.

Are we in England with you?  Are we in New England and needing to deal with those winters?  Or are we in the Eastern South - Georgia, Carolinas - and having to deal with those summers?  I am guessing, by those infernal trees, we are NOT in Arizona or Montana (oh, and the ocean front beach gives that away also  )  But maybe Seattle?  Or are we somehow in New Zealand?

That location will determine very much what we can grow and for how long.

[Gamer]

Personal weapons will be a matter of choice.  If you like revolvers and are comfortable with the the .38 I won’t dissuade you.  Though I may gently offer you some benefits to a .357 revolver, too.  I’d keep a collection and go with what made the most sense for the moment.  Off the top of my head I like the M4, M1A1 with a or 9mm.  I’d never carry more than one unless there was reason to think the threat level was elevated for us.

Yes any handgun bigger than a little .22" is fine by me..
And like you say, we'd have a range of weapons available at the Hall, for example when we go out foraging in the area or along the seashore, rifles would be the best bet in case we have to return long range sniper fire.
And if the Hall itself came under fire we'd holster our handguns and grab rifles to tackle the threat..

[Gamer]

there was a family in CA (who are no longer mentioned by name on this forum) who grew enough for their family of 4 on 1/5 of an acre.  They did vertical.
I think the big question, before we go on too much further - location.

Does "they did vertical" mean they lived in an apartment block with a roof garden?
If they were the unconventional strong minded type they might be the sort we want in our group.. 
As for location, the Hall is in any typical temperate zone anywhere in the world where preferably the summers are not unbearably hot and the winters are not unbearably cold..

[Smurf Hunter]

Yes any handgun bigger than a little .22" is fine by me..
And like you say, we'd have a range of weapons available at the Hall, for example when we go out foraging in the area or along the seashore, rifles would be the best bet in case we have to return long range sniper fire.
And if the Hall itself came under fire we'd holster our handguns and grab rifles to tackle the threat..

I'm not an infantryman, but I watch movies.
Sometimes the most effective squad use of firearms is to lay down suppressing fire.  Keeping the other guy down allows your unit to move.  While any gun could accomplish this to a degree, a medium range carbine seems the popular form.

Long range precision fire has a distinct first mover advantage, but if you don't know where he is, but he knows where you are, you'd be better off spraying in the general direction than squeezing off a single shot with a bolt gun.

Any combat vets feel free to pick apart my potentially I'll informed understanding.

[Gamer]

..if you don't know where he is, but he knows where you are, you'd be better off spraying in the general direction than squeezing off a single shot with a bolt gun.

Agreed, okay Arnie?

"Yah, you betta believe it!"


https://youtu.be/caW5-yguz2U

[CharlesH]

Gamer quote- at this point we should decide whether our current group of 15 is quite big enough for now, or whether we should want any more new members at all for the time being?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay let's debate..
In your post #34 you said- "I think one acre would be plenty the first year for both food and to begin laying in viable seed stock. Along with gathering/gleaming wild stock we can keep an eye open for perennials for food as well. I do like my annual veggies, though, and I’m eager to find seed and get it growing before it all loses viability with age. We’ll find stuff that has grown itself, but a diverse garden is good and we need seed for that."

At the moment our group is 15-strong, so the vital question is how many more people will our one-acre spread be able to comfortably support?

My 1-acre suggestion is for the 15 here now, plus building up a supply of fresh seed stock.  If we decide to increase the size of our group I believe the area selected will also allow us to scale up our acreage.
 
long-term (more than a couple generations into the future) I suspect humanity will re-consolidate and grow into larger communities.  It seems to be in our dna (think hunter/gatherers to Olmecs to Maya to Aztec in the ancient Western Hemisphere).  I’m hoping we will have a plan for being part of the solution to how that future consolidation will look, and not simply get subsumed into whatever vision some other group decides for us.
 
I think your analysis is correct Smurf Hunter.  The best solution for us obviously is never to need to pull the trigger in the first place, but if we do have to fight then suppression has it’s place:  fix your enemy with one part of your force, while maneuvering into position to eliminate them with another.  Of course, in this brave new world even an otherwise minor flesh wound could prove deadly so keeping the lead out of the air still makes the most sense in my opinion.
 
Based on the picture I envisioned us in the mid Atlantic or southern US but I don’t know the answer to that either.  Did you mention it already Gamer?

[Gamer]

My 1-acre suggestion is for the 15 here now, plus building up a supply of fresh seed stock.  If we decide to increase the size of our group I believe the area selected will also allow us to scale up our acreage...
Based on the picture I envisioned us in the mid Atlantic or southern US but I don’t know the answer to that either.  Did you mention it already Gamer?

The Hall is in any temperate climate anywhere in the world where the extremes of temperature are not unbearable in summer and winter.
As for seeds, yeah we definitely need to get things growing, because at the moment we're getting a bit fed up with fish from the river and shellfish from the seashore. Our crack shots are keeping us supplied with rabbits and the odd deer and partridge, but our bodies are telling us they crave green stuff too.
Below is our ultimate aim, a nice little growing area behind the Hall, but first we need seed.
Question- where can we get the seed from?

[DrJohn]

Does anyone have any thoughts about fresh water for 15 souls?  Is there a usable well?  What about sanitation?  Is there a septic system? 

[Morning Sunshine]

Does "they did vertical" mean they lived in an apartment block with a roof garden?

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1146&bih=883&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=fFgEW_LjMunMjwSuqLoo&q=vertical+vegetable+garden&oq=vertical+vegetable+garden&gs_l=img.3..0l10.26127.27837.0.28209.10.10.0.0.0.0.258.1333.0j4j3.7.0....0...1c.1.64.img..5.5.1037...0i7i30k1.0.VHhsH6uWhlE#imgrc=jfJYYqfypl_VPM:

squash, tomatoes, cucumbers, strawberries, leafy greens, etc.  All growing UP instead of OUT

[CharlesH]

As regards finding seed.  I’d start at lunch cal garden supply stores.  They probably have racks of seed, even if the plague hit in early fall.  Take everything there and try to grow it.  Other places to look Are Walmart type stores.

[CharlesH]

Does anyone have any thoughts about fresh water for 15 souls?  Is there a usable well?  What about sanitation?  Is there a septic system?

 
15 people can crap in outhouses if necessary.  No septic needed for this number in my opinion.  But we do need a couple outhouses and a plan to rotate them to new locations.
 
A well would be nice.  And this may be something solar can help with:  pump water when it’s sunny into a storage receptacle.
 
After three years are lead-acid or lithium ion batteries still useful?

[LvsChant]

Probably the danger from feral animals is greater than any threat by other humans if the population is that diminished. It would be good to have a plan in place in the case of unknown person/persons arriving, but that seems less likely than the possibility of predators or packs of wild dogs, etc.

As MS mentioned, perhaps site selection should be re-visited... a good source for fresh water plus septic system seems rather crucial to good living to me. If the hall doesn't have these things, perhaps a better site in a more defensible position could be found... and it may well be that people prefer to live in separate houses in a neighborhood rather than altogether in one big mansion.

Also, I'm a bit surprised that foodstores in the populated areas ran out/spoiled in only 3 years... I'd imagine gathering goods (including seed stock) from the towns would still be worth an occasional foray. Most of the canned food should still be fine, too. Probably there were a good many gardens growing 3 years ago when the majority of the population died... probably there are some gardens that have self propagated that could be used as a good source of seed as well.

[Gamer]

As MS mentioned, perhaps site selection should be re-visited... a good source for fresh water plus septic system seems rather crucial to good living to me. If the hall doesn't have these things, perhaps a better site in a more defensible position could be found... and it may well be that people prefer to live in separate houses in a neighborhood rather than altogether in one big mansion.

Does anyone have any thoughts about fresh water for 15 souls?  Is there a usable well?  What about sanitation?  Is there a septic system?

Here are my pics of the Hall again, tell me if I've overlooked anything, but it's a good solid stone-built house surrounded by excellent potential food sources, namely fish from the river, shellfish, seaweed and salt from the seashore, bunnies and birds from the fields and woods, wild berries, fruit, mushrooms and wild honey if we're lucky, good fertile soil all around for growing things, plus plenty of firewood.
The river provides us with fresh water (shall we boil it first?) and do we really need a well? And the river also doubles as a latrine so long as we remember to empty our buckets downstream, or do we need septic tanks/pits? 






As for living in a neighbourhood in our own separate homes, it's a matter of preference, but post-apoc cities don't provide as much aforementioned benefits as the Hall would.
Concrete jungles will be pretty bleak barren rat-infested places, especially when the shelves become empty..





"Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequalled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equalled again.
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive.
Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.
What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!"- Jesus of Nazareth, Mark ch 13

[Gamer]

..I'm a bit surprised that foodstores in the populated areas ran out/spoiled in only 3 years... I'd imagine gathering goods (including seed stock) from the towns would still be worth an occasional foray. Most of the canned food should still be fine, too. Probably there were a good many gardens growing 3 years ago when the majority of the population died... probably there are some gardens that have self propagated that could be used as a good source of seed as well.

Yes, forays into cities will be on our agenda to pick up anything we can use such as guns/tools/seeds/medicines/matches/batteries/paraffin/candles/bottled water/booze etc), and hopefully some types of canned foods might still be edible but the bottom line is that everything will run out eventually, but hopefully by that time we'll have got ourselves well-established and will be whooping it up at the Hall..



Question- how long will petrol/gasoline/diesel be available for our foray vehicles? Presumably there are thousands of gallons of the stuff in the underground tanks at filling stations, but how will we get it up as the electric pumps won't be working?

[CharlesH]

A well is better for fresh water than the river, although boiling/filtering river water works.  Rivers may have heavy metals and other contaminates washing in from upstream.  Plus people up river from us might be using it as a latrine...
 
I’ll bet this place already has a well based on it’s remoteness from an urban drinking supply.  We just have to get the water up from it without lowering contamination down into it.  I suspect this is doable even if it’s a small 4” pipe.  We just have to think it through.
 
The remote location also argues for there already being a septic system.  If it’s not a gravity fed system we’ll have to work on it to meet our needs, but I it’s probably here and probably in good shape.  In the meantime, outhouses aren’t so bad. 
 
We should also be burying our trash rather than sending it down river. 

[Hurricane]

You can get "buckets" to drop down inside a well casing.

[CharlesH]

You can get "buckets" to drop down inside a well casing.

 
That’s cool.  I didn’t think about that.  We could devise something the diameter of the well. Weight it, and bring up water without electricity.  I’m sure we could also channel river water through a sand/earth filter for our non-potable needs.  If the septic is gravity fed we’re in business.

[Dave in Broadway, NC]

What the heck...I'm in.

Retired military here.

Harkening back to an earlier post about composite risk management used by the military (US, anyway), there are two elements of risk: likelihood and severity. We should assess several risk factors (20 would be a good number to start with) and prioritize risk mitigation measures.

I'll start.

Running out of ammo. Likelihood high. Severity high. Mitigation - implement hunting and physical security practices that do not require small arms as primary weapon. Need to construct/employ bows and arrows, snares, traps, e.g. Implement defense measures that do not depend on suppressive fire and "spraying" targets.  Construct turning obstacles to canalize targets where they can be engaged with precision fire. Establish primary, secondary and alternate fighting positions with good cover for withdrawal.

Running out of food. Likelihood moderate. Severity high. Mitigation - extend the defensible perimeter to include garden and livestock. Agree with others on the need to gather as much seed and appropriate as much livestock as possible.

Suffering from cold weather from late fall through early spring. Likelihood high. Severity high. Mitigation - start work now to lay in fire wood.

Medical emergencies. Likelihood high. Severity high. Mitigation - identify someone in the group with the most medical experience to be the doctor. Scout the countryside for anything that can be used to develop homeopathic remedies. As able, cultivate a medicinal herb garden.

Exhaustion. Likelihood high. Severity moderate. Mitigation - develop work/rest plans that balance physical security, procuring/growing food and attending to long-term preps.

Illness from food-borne disease and contaminated water. Likelihood high. Severity high. Mitigation - good sanitation is paramount.

Just a start. Invite others to add more.