.224 Valkyrie

[David in MN]

Federal has come up with the new wundercartridge. The .224 Valkyrie is a necked down 6.8 SPC that shoots a long .22 round with very high sectional density. Here's a pretty cool review:

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/224-valkyrie-complete-guide/

Now I'm not a ballistics expert. But I know a few. They are very excited about this round. It stays supersonic past 1000 yards, shoots farther and flatter than a 5.56, and has much less wind deflection.

For those playing along, Federal just gave new competition to the 6.5 Creedmore (rumored to be a favorite for replacing the 5.56). The Valkyrie only requires a few moderations to an AR 15 to run (new barrel, bolt) so it seems obvious Federal is making a play at the "new" military cartridge. If you've been looking for an AR round that performs a little different than a 5.56 maybe it's right for you.

[Smurf Hunter]

I'm with you except for 6.5CM.  That's intended to be a better .308 optimized slightly for target shooting.

Sounds like .224VK is analogous to that for the 5.56/.223

[Carl]

  I feel I have to as....For who is performance at 1000 yards important?
NOT self defense
NOT hunting as too few have trigger control and technique  to monitor thermal and wind effect..

Oh that brings us back to 'hail Mary' paper punchers , I was one ,for a time

I guess if you can afford it and the high cost of finding your ability or where you fall short.


Did I mention that I am heavily medicated now?   Oh look, a squirrel!

[Chemsoldier]

  I feel I have to as....For who is performance at 1000 yards important?
NOT self defense
NOT hunting as too few have trigger control and technique  to monitor thermal and wind effect..

Oh that brings us back to 'hail Mary' paper punchers , I was one ,for a time

I guess if you can afford it and the high cost of finding your ability or where you fall short.


Did I mention that I am heavily medicated now?   Oh look, a squirrel!

As David said, probably competition for military contract.  The military would like better ballistic potential without having to hump an AR-10 sized weapon up afghan mountains. A lot of afghan engagements are realllll long.

Also it probably hits harder, especially at range. Heavier bullet staying fast for longer.

Seems promising. Ballistics junkies who like playing with hand loads for fun, no reason not to start playing with it.  Preppers who have many priorities, I would wait for a major player like the DoD to buy it before adopting it. 

[Alan Georges]

Looks interesting.  Not my bandwagon, but it's fun to watch others innovate.  After that, who knows?  The .224 may be the next big thing.

[Smurf Hunter]

From a prepping point, what drives popularity of the AR15 ecosystem is availability and price. Today we can literally go to sporting good stores and find basic accessories like magazines and stocks.
That's not true for many .30 cal "battle rifles" whether you like M-14 pattern, FN FAL, HK G36, etc.

So as a prepared civilian, if I decided I needed to hit further and harder, I'd absolutely be having a conversation about bolt action guns.  Many accept or can easily be modified to take detachable box magazines, though at distances WELL beyond self-defense (under rule of law), it's difficult to argue the need for the bigger capacity. Doesn't even have to be a "Scout rifle".  I know many people who've taken a $500 savage model 10, added a decent scope and can ring head size steel gongs past 600 yards from various shooting positions.

A military context is completely different.  I can appreciate the simplified logistics and load out for a soldier who might have a 500 yard engagement and a CQB the following week.
On the flipside, I had the pleasure of witnessing one of these in action while I worked an RSO shift at our rifle range.


http://nemoarms.com/rifles/omen-watchman

It's $6000+ AR chambered in .300 win mag.  It's such a powerful cartridge follow up shots at long distance have a different point of impact due to a hot barrel.  It also has a crazy complicated bolt carrier/buffer setup that telescopes into itself to absorb recoil.  What's the point?  Well I asked the company sales rep who brought the gun out.

The mission for this is snipers.  Why not stick to a bolt action?  Follow up shots lose precision anyhow...
His reason is at carbine distances it is plenty accurate.  And if the bad guys come up on the sniper's hide, without changing guns he can engage them quickly.

So you have an extremely accurate system that can also fire rapidly.  Though controlling the recoil of .300 win mag at speed seems a lot to ask.

[Carl]

  This is why snipers always work with support and not as lone gun handler.

50 BMG still rules the roost in that world as it is potent suppression.

[Smurf Hunter]

  This is why snipers always work with support and not as lone gun handler.

True. Feels like a solution seeking a problem.  It was extremely cool to handle and examine the action.

[David in MN]

What is interesting with all these calibers is that it is clear the NATO rounds are on their way out. Snipers are arguing over .338 Lapua vs. 50 BMG. The new standard round is rapidly becoming a debate between 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel, and this Valkyrie.

Bear in mind that Vista Outdoor could have made this a boutique round from Speer. They instead introduced it from their bulk producer Federal and even gave it an "American Eagle" line. That's their bulk budget brand. This isn't a fancy hunting round. They are literally marketing it as the best option for our MSR (modern sporting rifle). Vista isn't competing with Hornady on this one. They are going against Winchester white box. There is no reason to do this other than to float it in front of the military.

I'm not saying the Valkyrie will be the next military round but the writing is on the wall that a change is coming.

[Smurf Hunter]

What is interesting with all these calibers is that it is clear the NATO rounds are on their way out. Snipers are arguing over .338 Lapua vs. 50 BMG. The new standard round is rapidly becoming a debate between 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel, and this Valkyrie.

Bear in mind that Vista Outdoor could have made this a boutique round from Speer. They instead introduced it from their bulk producer Federal and even gave it an "American Eagle" line. That's their bulk budget brand. This isn't a fancy hunting round. They are literally marketing it as the best option for our MSR (modern sporting rifle). Vista isn't competing with Hornady on this one. They are going against Winchester white box. There is no reason to do this other than to float it in front of the military.

I'm not saying the Valkyrie will be the next military round but the writing is on the wall that a change is coming.

Remember .327 Federal? Often it comes down to marketing.

[David in MN]

Remember .327 Federal? Often it comes down to marketing.

Still considering one. I like wheelguns. But yeah, lots can come down to marketing. But it sure feels like the ammo companies are developing something new. Feels like there's blood in the water.

I guess you never know when it comes to a government contract. I'll also keep an eye out for police adoption.

[Chemsoldier]

There was also weirdness when 6.8 SPC and .300 Blackout came out.  We shall see.

[Alan Georges]

There was also weirdness when 6.8 SPC and .300 Blackout came out.  We shall see.

I was just about to post something about 6.8 SPC.  That was a great cartridge that never went anywhere.  Too close to the 6.5 Grendel?

[Chemsoldier]

I was just about to post something about 6.8 SPC.  That was a great cartridge that never went anywhere.  Too close to the 6.5 Grendel?

Not sure. I heard JSOC elements did a lot with it. Not sure why it didn't get bigger than it did.  Some may be the distance shooting of Afghanistan. The MK 262 5.56 loading was better at long range than 6.8 SPC and closed some of the terminal ballistics gap but could use the same rifles.

[The Professor]

I don't get excited until at least 5 years after a cartridge is introduced by a major manufacturer.  Keep in mind that major manufacturers are making ammo, right now, for calibers such as 221 Remington Fireball, 260 Remington, 280 Remington, 30 Remington, 9.3x74Rimmed and others.  None of these are any great sellers compared to 5.56x45, 7.62x51, etc.

I know that .300 BLK was a requested experiment, initially, that was marketed properly by AAC, et al.

But, one of the reasons I posted the "Buy 223 now" thread was because I have heard quite a bit of rumbling about the military wanting to go to a new caliber/ammunition type in the future.

I  have mixed opinions about the military changing drastically, especially when you're talking about a major change in the type of ammo (caseless, plastic-cased, etc.).

IF it happens, then I'd suggest that we're looking at a major increase in the price of cased .223/5.56x45 and 7.62x51 ammo since much of the benefits of massive productions amounts trickled down to we, the shooters.

I could go all TFHB on the discussion and suggest that the Military (and, soon after, LE) would change to a new ammo type that is prohibitively expensive to the average shooter.  It would be so much easier to simply "turn off" manufacturing, at some point, and let supplies dwindle.   Of course, the panic purchasing of the last 10 years or so would mean that some would have ammo for a very LOONG time.  But, in 20 or so years?

Here's an interesting read, not 100% on-topic, since it's geared more towards the .300 BLK, but it helps explain some of the mindset behind caliber/ammo selection by the military:

http://smallwarsjournal.com/index.php/jrnl/art/the-infantrymans-half-kilometer-reconsidered

As to the .224 Valkyrie, I just don't see much of a military market for the advantages the bullet offers beyond Long Range Shooting, which I consider a comparatively tiny market share.

But, I have been wrong in the past.  After all, I predicted Hillary would be in the White House right now.

The Professor

[Alan Georges]

But, one of the reasons I posted the "Buy 223 now" thread was because I have heard quite a bit of rumbling about the military wanting to go to a new caliber/ammunition type in the future.

I  have mixed opinions about the military changing drastically, especially when you're talking about a major change in the type of ammo (caseless, plastic-cased, etc.).

IF it happens, then I'd suggest that we're looking at a major increase in the price of cased .223/5.56x45 and 7.62x51 ammo since much of the benefits of massive productions amounts trickled down to we, the shooters.

Yes it could happen just as you spelled out.  Paradoxically in the short term it could also crash the prices on 5.56 for a few years after the change is announced, before prices soar again.  Remember how cheap mil sup 7.62x51 was circa 2003, right after a bunch of countries (SA, Aus, etc.) moved away from FALs and similar rifles?  Not saying history will repeat here, but be ready if bargains on 5.56 present themselves.

[David in MN]

http://smallwarsjournal.com/index.php/jrnl/art/the-infantrymans-half-kilometer-reconsidered

That's an interesting read. To me it reads like the development from volley fire to aimed fire. Ironically an insurgent in Afghanistan can do volley fire. That's the problem being broached. If you show up with a 5.56 and I have some version  of a 7.62 I will forever pick a field of combat that requires 500+ yards. The weapon of the insurgent isn't the rifle. It's the choice of when, where, and how to engage.

We live in a world with a military that no longer values lightweight. The 5.56 was optimized to put lead downrange in Vietnam. The cartridge that made sense in a maximum range of 300 yards in a jungle sucks as a primary in deserts or across mountains in the Caucuses.

We're still using a round optimized for short range communist human wave attacks. To me this is a question of the net optimized rifle. Not sure if I've seen it but the arms companies are putting up options.