Author Topic: griz ..  (Read 14954 times)

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
griz ..
« on: October 10, 2016, 06:59:31 AM »
 My sister lives near the Tetons in Idaho. My mother says Griz have moved into the area. I heard even that a problem bear with a cub was just relocated to the mountains near her house. She does alot of horseback riding into the backcountry overnight by herself. I think she often brings 2 horses and 3 dogs. She probably does not have alot of money for a gun .. Would some kind of carbine be good for under $300 ?

My brother in law doesn't always like her going off in the mountains by herself but she does what she wants. There has always been talk of getting a handgun as well. 9mm would be good for protection and for putting down a horse, but for griz my guess is it is too light .. Even a bigger gun would probably not be good either but not sure if it is better than nothing .. Having the full mojo would perhaps be too expensive and too big of a kick
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 07:14:34 AM by surfivor »

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
Re: griz ..
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2016, 07:39:32 AM »

 I guess a 12 gauge pump shotgun is a good choice .. Are there decent models for $200 ?
I saw some for around $350

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 717
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: griz ..
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2016, 10:09:06 AM »
She has horses and can't afford a $300 dollar shotgun to help protect her life?
Buckshot or slugs are about minimal for dangerous game.

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
Re: griz ..
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2016, 10:13:12 AM »
She has horses and can't afford a $300 dollar shotgun to help protect her life?
Buckshot or slugs are about minimal for dangerous game.

 women are big into horses .. having a horse is such a high priority for her

Offline Skunkeye

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1609
  • Karma: 90
Re: griz ..
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2016, 10:35:33 PM »
The Mossberg Maverick 88 is a reliable shotgun that won't break the bank.  They can be had for around $200 brand-new, almost anywhere.  They sell several different models with varying barrel lengths and magazine capacities. 

A 12 gauge pump shotgun loaded with slugs is about the only "cheap" option for big animals like bear, but it's also something that your sister is going to need to practice with.  It's not the kind of gun you can fire a couple of times at the range and then be ready to use effectively in an adrenalin-dump scenario.

Offline trekker111

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 916
  • Karma: 71
Re: griz ..
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2016, 11:50:17 PM »
There really isn't any low cost reliable option for under $300, except for the already mentioned 12 gauge pump loaded with slugs. The issue there is getting her to take it along when she rides.

The better idea would be a lever action carbine in 45-70, 450 Marlin, or 444, bit you aren't going to get one for <$300, and probably not less than $500.

The only way I would recommend a handgun is if it is a big magnum revolver, and she is willing to practice and get proficient with it. Something like a 454 casull, 460 s&w, 480 Ruger, 500 s&w, but now we are talking $$$$. Even used you would be looking at $800 territory, and she would still be better off with a carbine chambered for one of those.

I can't remember where I read it, but there was an interview with a bear guide that was asked about a recommendation for a grizzly defense pistol, his reply was basically that it didn't matter what kind if pistol it was as long as the hammer and front sight are removed, that way it hurts less when the bear shoves it up your..... That always pops into my mind when I see a hand gun for bear discussion.

endurance

  • Guest
Re: griz ..
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2016, 01:15:25 AM »
A $40 can of bear spray. If you look at the research of the topic, handguns are effective at stopping an attack less than 50% of the time and even many rifle encounters with rifles result in the person getting hurt before the animal dies. Bear spray is much more effective because bears have a history of encounters with skunks and know that further attacks will be futile and uncomfortable.

I believe university of Montana, Missoula published a study looking at over 100 grizzly encounters and bear spray was the most effective tool at stopping an attack. Do your own research.

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 717
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: griz ..
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2016, 04:53:12 AM »
The $15 slam fire shotgun from another thread and a box of slugs will get you on budget for under $50, and she can decorate it with a woodlands pattern.

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
Re: griz ..
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2016, 06:42:09 AM »
she has bear spray but apparently has thought about a gun as well and to be able to put down the horse and for other self defense .. She says she likes to travel light and the shotgun might be too much .. if that's the case then there's no other option

Offline trekker111

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 916
  • Karma: 71
Re: griz ..
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2016, 06:48:13 PM »
A $40 can of bear spray. If you look at the research of the topic, handguns are effective at stopping an attack less than 50% of the time and even many rifle encounters with rifles result in the person getting hurt before the animal dies. Bear spray is much more effective because bears have a history of encounters with skunks and know that further attacks will be futile and uncomfortable.

I believe university of Montana, Missoula published a study looking at over 100 grizzly encounters and bear spray was the most effective tool at stopping an attack. Do your own research.

I've sprayed alot of animals over the years, never had anything better than mediocre results.

This guy should have been driving to the hospital instead of filming, but it shows the effectiveness of only carrying bear spray.
https://youtu.be/tK609rbSBLs

The only sure way to stop a threat, man, bear, or otherwise,  is copper jacketed lead tearing through the central nervous system.

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 717
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: griz ..
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2016, 05:21:58 AM »
You really only need a 22 in bear country and a slow friend...slower than you anyway and that's where the 22 comes in...how do you spell kneecap? :P

Offline David in MN

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 2780
  • Karma: 213
Re: griz ..
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2016, 07:15:36 AM »
Just to be clear. The desire is to select an inexpensive gun that a relatively inexperienced shooter could use to defend herself from a bear while on horseback?

I regret to say that no such weapon exists. I'd get the spray.

Defending oneself from a bear is no small task. It requires big cartridges and often many of them. If you ever see one in the wild you'll understand immediately. I don't want to tussle with a badger. Bears? No thanks.

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
Re: griz ..
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2016, 08:12:31 AM »
Depends how brave you are under pressure. Hard to say, wouldn't want to find out but sometimes it's like that .. The truly brave are not afraid to die, at least perhaps not for that 30 seconds of adrenaline .. Some native Americans supposedly fought bears with knives and spears. Some claim animals show more respect to those who have no fear

 but I always thought a shotgun is not hard to shoot .. can't you practice with dummy shells to see how fast you can reload without damaging any pins etc ?

As for me, I doubt I would camp in grizzly country only because I wouldn't be able to get a good night sleep. I would be listening tor every little noise. There's lots of places in the world where I wouldn't surf either or I would only surf where other people are surfing because I sometimes think about whats under the water. Some places there are alot of those big fish
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 08:26:23 AM by surfivor »

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
Re: griz ..
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2016, 09:02:52 AM »
From what I read, some American Indian warriors seemed so eager to do battle and prove their bravery that alot of them where easily killed off in the indian wars. I wonder if being killed fighting a bear would have been seen as a great honor ?

Not my thing, but I was reminded of this. The Tiger Swami is mentioned in the world famous book "Autobiography of a Yogi". He was severely injured by a tiger but managed to kill the tiger with his bare hands which was his last fight. Other fights previously he did much better and apparently always prevailed.

The story is, he was renowned for fighting tigers but a prophet or astrologist of some type warned his father that the next tiger fight would be his last. He was injured in that fight and afterwards gave up fighting tigers and became a swami

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soham_Swami

Soham Swami, or Tiger Swami, was a guru and yogi of India. He lived before the first quarter of the twentieth century

..

was one of pioneers of physical prowess of modern Bengal. He had so much physical strength that he could wrestle even tigers. Due to this reason came to be known as Tiger Swami. But this tiger bouts took place before he entered into the spiritual path.


===========
Chapter from the book on the tiger swami is here:

https://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap6.php

 "Will you not tell us, please, how it is possible to subdue with bare fists the most ferocious of jungle beasts, the royal Bengals?"

"My sons, it is nothing to me to fight tigers. I could do it today if necessary." He gave a childlike laugh. "You look upon tigers as tigers; I know them as pussycats."

"Swamiji, I think I could impress my subconsciousness with the thought that tigers are pussycats, but could I make tigers believe it?"

"Of course strength also is necessary! One cannot expect victory from a baby who imagines a tiger to be a house cat! Powerful hands are my sufficient weapon."

He asked us to follow him to the patio, where he struck the edge of a wall. A brick crashed to the floor; the sky peered boldly through the gaping lost tooth of the wall. I fairly staggered in astonishment; he who can remove mortared bricks from a solid wall with one blow, I thought, must surely be able to displace the teeth of tigers!

 "A number of men have physical power such as mine, but still lack in cool confidence. Those who are bodily but not mentally stalwart may find themselves fainting at mere sight of a wild beast bounding freely in the jungle. The tiger in its natural ferocity and habitat is vastly different from the opium-fed circus animal!

"Many a man with herculean strength has nonetheless been terrorized into abject helplessness before the onslaught of a royal Bengal. Thus the tiger has converted the man, in his own mind, to a state as nerveless as the pussycat's. It is possible for a man, owning a fairly strong body and an immensely strong determination, to turn the tables on the tiger, and force it to a conviction of pussycat defenselessness. How often I have done just that!"

..

"'I am no fatalist, son. But I believe in the just law of retribution, as taught in the holy scriptures. There is resentment against you in the jungle family; sometime it may act to your cost.'

..

"'Tigers are the most contemptible of the jungle breed! Who knows? my blows may inject some slight sanity of consideration into their thick heads. I am headmaster in a forest finishing school, to teach them gentle manners!

« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 09:25:22 AM by surfivor »

Offline Chemsoldier

  • Pot Stirrer
  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 5882
  • Karma: 550
Re: griz ..
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2016, 09:25:40 AM »
Rounds complete, end of mission. She has spray and does not seem interested in going through the time, money and effort to do firearms in a useful manner. She is as ready as she can usefully be.

If you really want to open the door to something more, she can buy a furearm with NO connection to bears. Perhaps she will become interested in shooting bear grade calibers later. For now, bear spray is quite prudent.

Otherwise she is as prepared as she wants to be. By the by, she does not seem poorly prepared, just not what I consider ideal.

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
Re: griz ..
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2016, 09:47:20 AM »
 right, although some wildlife agency has released problem bears in the mountains behind her house where she goes horseback riding .. She is not much in favor of guns and supports Hillary, Obama, etc .. believes in global warming, no time for conspiracies .. all that .. not much of a second amendment supporter, probably doesn't like hunters etc.  She is thinking about a gun but does not seem ready to move in that direction ..

My dad was a serious liberal most of his life and it has worn off on her the most .. I remember all the George McGovern signs and other politics when we where kids. Gerry Studds who ended up in Congress was over at our house and other people high in the Democratic party at one  time or another in those days. The guy who ran the democratic party in our state and was a state rep  for many years was a friend of the families and we spent alot of time at his house back in the 70's ..

My dad was originally from Vermont and very proud of that state. He used to go deer hunting but after my uncle shot a deer he gave it up. He never could give up eating prime rib steaks though

« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 10:00:54 AM by surfivor »

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 717
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: griz ..
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2016, 10:47:39 AM »
Maybe she could just ride her horse somewhere else?

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
Re: griz ..
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2016, 10:58:53 AM »
Maybe she could just ride her horse somewhere else?

She seems to like to rid out in the mountains of Idaho or desert areas in Utah but spends more time in Idaho

endurance

  • Guest
Re: griz ..
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2016, 01:02:47 PM »
So this really comes down to your fear of bears, not hers, and you are wanting to give advice that you get from a bunch of gun nuts on the interweb because you lack the personal expertise in the field.

Seems rational. I'm sure she'll be sold on whatever you tell her.

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 717
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: griz ..
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2016, 01:15:38 PM »
So this really comes down to your fear of bears, not hers, and you are wanting to give advice that you get from a bunch of gun nuts on the interweb because you lack the personal expertise in the field.

Seems rational. I'm sure she'll be sold on whatever you tell her.

It is alway TRUE when it's on the internet.

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
Re: griz ..
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2016, 01:53:17 PM »
Dave in MN steered things into the "bears are scary" direction, I was just talking around that point ..

 She did recently express an interest in a gun but then seemed to shy away from it because there is no ideal option etc .. I agreed that things reached a dead end a while back in the thread. We are just talking around the topic in circles because I guess we like to discuss outdoorsy, gun related, slightly scary, adventurist sounding stuff ..

 Figuring out what kind of gun for a bear on the web can't be as hard as figuring out who killed JFK. I do have some ideas on the later but she doesn't seem interested in topics like that .. Something about she is too busy (but watches alot of TV anyway, gets most info from the car radio, believes everything on NPR, can't afford an IPod or some such). 


Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 717
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: griz ..
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2016, 02:03:41 PM »
She might be mean enough on her own if her husband won't even ride with her.
In inexperienced hands,there is no gun capable of taking dangerous game as
she is recoil sensitive.Have her at least make sure her affairs are in order or
we are back ,full circle,to the 22 and a slow friend.

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 717
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: griz ..
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2016, 05:08:01 PM »
How about a picture of the bear?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 07:19:47 PM by Chemsoldier »

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
Re: griz ..
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2016, 05:23:19 PM »
How about a picture of the bear?

 When we where kids and no where near even being teens, mom and dad took us camping in the Canadian rockies .. Baanf. When we got to the campground the ranger said that there was a problem grizzly bear in the area. Someone told us that a bear showed up at a campsite and stuck his head in the tent for a sec and then wandered around the campsite. The husband grabbed the kid and ran in the car leaving the wife alone in the tent.

 Anyway, we drove around the campground and picked the campsite right next to the bear trap that the rangers had placed there because we wanted to see a bear and I don't think we had seen any. I set up my little pup tent but my dad wouldn't let me stay in it, I had to stay in the camper. I was actually nervous about staying in the tent I think the closer it got to getting dark but I pretended I wasn't. When I looked out of the camper window in the morning, the bear was out there pulling up the tent stakes to my pup tent with his teeth. Some where there is an old picture of that. I am totally serious. On another morning the camper was rocking back and forth. The bear was rubbing his back against the camper. They often do that on trees because they probably have an itch

 We saw the bear go in the trap to get the meat but he held the trap door open with his back foot and managed to sniggle out and get away after eating the bait. Finally one day the rangers came around with a tranquilizer gun and shot the bear and moved him someplace else.

..

 Another time we saw mountain goats there in Baanf. All these cars where pulled over on the side of the road to see the goats. A man motioned for us to cross the road, my sister was in front of me. Suddenly I heard a car horn and saw a car skidding towards me at 80 mph or something. I took one step and leaped as far as I could to get out of the way. The skid marks of that car went on forever on the road ..

Once in yellowstone all these cars where stopped looking at bears. The dog was in the front seat. Alot of the older cars had those little triangle shaped vents near the front of the window. The bear came right up to the car and the bear and the dog touched noses through that part of the window. That one I think was a black bear

 We drove all the way out there with the camper to the rocky mountains a couple of times ..

« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 05:38:50 PM by surfivor »

Offline machinisttx

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 847
  • Karma: 48
  • yay
Re: griz ..
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2016, 09:38:29 PM »
Depends how brave you are under pressure. Hard to say, wouldn't want to find out but sometimes it's like that .. The truly brave are not afraid to die, at least perhaps not for that 30 seconds of adrenaline .. Some native Americans supposedly fought bears with knives and spears. Some claim animals show more respect to those who have no fear

 but I always thought a shotgun is not hard to shoot .. can't you practice with dummy shells to see how fast you can reload without damaging any pins etc ?

I'd say indians fighting bears with knives and spears was either insanity, or desperation. Animals do recognize imbalances in mental state.

A shotgun is no more difficult to shoot than any other firearm. Safety off, squeeze trigger. Shooting one and hitting the target is a bit different, and even with no choke, you still have to account for pellet spread(shot loads). 00 buckshot for example contains(usually) 9 pellets. Even at 10 yards, there is very little spread. It would yield somewhere around a 10" diameter pattern at that distance. Slugs are best with a rifle sighted barrel(better yet with a rifled barrel). Either buck or slugs are going to punish the shooter quite a bit, even with a high quality recoil pad.

Years ago, there was an article from Clint Smith(Thunder Ranch) about his wife's love of running and several mountain lion attacks(on runners) in the area. At the end, he wrote something to the effect of her not being in any danger.....because she was running on a treadmill at the local gym.

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 6712
  • Karma: 820
Re: griz ..
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2016, 10:41:19 PM »
Figuring out what kind of gun for a bear on the web can't be as hard as figuring out who killed JFK. I do have some ideas on the later but she doesn't seem interested in topics like that .. Something about she is too busy (but watches alot of TV anyway, gets most info from the car radio, believes everything on NPR, can't afford an IPod or some such).

See, this is the kind of information that would have been helpful to have right up front, it really kinda encapsulates the whole thread in a nutshell, so to speak.


Animals do recognize imbalances in mental state.

Yes, they most certainly do.


Offline FrugalFannie

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1247
  • Karma: 64
Re: griz ..
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2016, 09:41:25 AM »
women are big into horses .. having a horse is such a high priority for her

tell her she needs to spend the money on the "right" gun to protect her horses. She'll find the money DAMN fast.

Seriously, last thing you want to do is piss off a bear. If you are shooting one to protect yourself or your animals, you want to stop that bear QUICK.

endurance

  • Guest
Re: griz ..
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2016, 02:29:56 PM »
The best gun in the world is a worthless without training. If she doesn't have the interest in spending 24 hours over the next month to learn how to safely handle and use a gun it's worse than worthless. It's dangerous. This whole thread is trying to push a string.

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 717
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: griz ..
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2016, 04:56:12 PM »
I had suggested everything but an inflatable goat....some problems are hard to fix.

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7547
  • Karma: 119
Re: griz ..
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2017, 12:31:44 PM »


 I just got this email from my sister:
 
-> "Shot off a whole bunch of different guns and types of bullets with my neighbor the gun expert and former Vietnam platoon leader. I've decided to buy a Remington 870 short barrel. Picking it up this weekend and then getting it modified to fit me."