Food shortages and the coming civil unrest.

[NightOwl]

The UN article keeps mentioning a "right" to food.  I'm skeptical...  Unless it's one of those non-enumerated 9th amendment rights or 10th amendment powers.  Which would make it a personal or state matter and not federal anyway.  I'm pretty sure our state and tribal governments already issue food stamps to the poor, and the rest of us exercise our "right" to food by paying cash.

The nice people at the UN like to invent goofy new "human rights" every day.  Now if we could just get them to admit that each person has a right to arms and a right to be left the heck alone...

[Louisiana Suvivor]

i'm don't have the right to food. neither do you. neither do the UN. now we have the right to get off our asses and get food in whatever legally acceptable way. maybe the UN should start making practical "rights". like the right to get off one's ass to be productive in this world. that is all. i'm going to breath in a paper bag now.

[ColdHaven]

The UN article keeps mentioning a "right" to food.  I'm skeptical...  Unless it's one of those non-enumerated 9th amendment rights or 10th amendment powers.  Which would make it a personal or state matter and not federal anyway.  I'm pretty sure our state and tribal governments already issue food stamps to the poor, and the rest of us exercise our "right" to food by paying cash.

The nice people at the UN like to invent goofy new "human rights" every day.  Now if we could just get them to admit that each person has a right to arms and a right to be left the heck alone...

+1 Agreed. But the UN is a bunch of pansies anyway. One day it is going to be an inalienable right to have DSL connections. 

They would never give us the human right to own a gun. 'It promotes violence'  'We want to promote peace'

The only thing I can answer to that is a line from 'Diary of a Mad Black Woman' :

Madea: Well, peace always comes with still...
[takes out gun]
Madea: 'cause I keeps me a piece o' steel. 

[TexSquirrel]

In many places in Europe it is common to only buy a day or two worth of food at a time.
Kitchens and refrigerators (and apartments) tend to be much smaller there.
It is easy to pick up fresh bread and veggies daily.

Last Sunday at church a couple were talking about going to Wal-Mart every day to pick up their evening meal.
Even if you have stored food, what a waste of time and money for gas.
We live 6 miles outside of town, so we limit our trips to the store.

[Stein]

We only have 30 days worth of food in the US at a time. If people are rioting do you think companies will ship supplies anywhere? Even if food can get to stores and be protected there, how do you travel through rioters to get produce? Massive civil disorder will force food shortages, food shortages will increase civil disorder.... The circle of life continues...... AHHHH EAHNUA!

Civil unrest and full blown country-wide riots are two separate things.  We had civil unrest during the Vietnam war and food was readily available.  My version of civil unrest is localized and not sustained riots on a daily basis.

At the end of the day, the countries with the most money and most powerful military will be the best fed.  Right or wrong, it is how it works.

Additionally, we have the potential to grow much more food than we do.  It would take some time, but the thing I noticed is that when corn prices shot up, hundreds of fallow acres around our community were suddenly busting with corn - literally transformed in a single growing season.  Captialism would lead people to grow whatever they could, not only to feed their families but to reap the windfall.  Every time I fly over the US, I am amazed at the amount of land not used for anything, some has been lost to development but much still remains a potential.

Homeowners also have more land per family than most countries.  We can all grow something, a portion of our food.  Where I live, tons of pink salmon go to waste every other year because nobody wants to harvest them.  A few people do but not many as the quality is much lower than kings, coho or red salmon.  Additionally, hatcheries could boost runs within a couple years if environmental concerns were trumped by hungry people.  Just an example of what could be used if necessary.  I think there is quite a bit of slack in the system - unless you live in NYC I guess.

Comparing this to Japan, Taiwan or other countries, we are in much better shape.

[NightOwl]

Comparing this to Japan, Taiwan or other countries, we are in much better shape.

When I visited Tokyo it took several days to figure out where they kept their grocery stores!  When I finally found a few, each was about the size of one of our mom & pop health food stores.  Bigger than a convenience store (plenty of those over there) but not by much.

Ditto for Chicago, downtown Atlanta, and to a lesser extent Tulsa.  Do these people not cook at home?  In Atlanta the only source I could find for big bottles of soda pop was a liquor store.  Gah.

I'm sure natives will do better than tourists in a pinch, because at least the natives had time to scout the stores over the years.  But still...  Around here the street corners alternate between supermarkets and mega-marts.  In my mind that translates to more available supply before the shelves go bare.

Edited to add:  In Tulsa they have grocery stores, but my sources say people generally prefer restaurants.   

[TexSquirrel]

Large stores can become bare in no time at all.
I know from experience.

Wal-Mart 2 days after Rita:
Where's the Beef?


Oh, here it is:


Target 3 days after Ike:
















More Hurricane pictures and more info about these pictures available here:
Ike Lessons Learned
Rita Lessons Learned

[ColdHaven]

Whats with the 'Caution Do Not Enter' tape? 

[flagtag]

With power outages, the freezers would not run.  So, either they were trying to preserve cold, OR I suppose it could be that it had been out too long and the food was spoiled and they were trying to keep people from buying it.  Judging from the picture, I'd say it was the first.

[cammoguy]

I was reading an article somewhere (sorry, I didn't save the URL) about Iran and Israel.
The author pointed out that Iran is testing missiles and Israel is getting nervous. Israel claims Iran is using the talks to buy themselves time to get their nuclear stuff all lined up. The author figured there was a short window of time for Israel to knock out Iran's capabilities. If Israel goes for it, the resulting chaos could cause gas prices to go up overnight. He suggested we could see prices at $20 a gallon.

If gas prices go that high overnight, what would happen here? How could trucks move food to the stores?
I suspect our national oil reserves would be saved for the military.

I guess we'd find out just how compassionate the "leaders" are for the common people.
 

[Winchester32]

"Ditto for Chicago, downtown Atlanta, and to a lesser extent Tulsa.  Do these people not cook at home?  In Atlanta the only source I could find for big bottles of soda pop was a liquor store.  Gah."

I spent a month in Chicago last June.  Our daughter needed treatments at a local children's hospital.  It was quite possibly the longest month of my entire life!  Locals do not shop or cook.  They eat out at at their choice of foreign food restarants on each corner and in between there is a Starbucks on every block!  The grocery stores are very tiny and very expensive.  We packed a majority of our food, already knowing it would be much more expensive there.  When we needed to purchase more than a loaf of bread, we drove north 2 hours to a Walmart.  I just couldn't bring myself to pay $2.99 a pound for apples. 

It seems a majority of people in places like Chicago are more interested in all the social goings on and the next fun & hip thing to do.  They just assume there will always be food at a store. 

[Winchester32]

Civil unrest and full blown country-wide riots are two separate things.  We had civil unrest during the Vietnam war and food was readily available.  My version of civil unrest is localized and not sustained riots on a daily basis.

At the end of the day, the countries with the most money and most powerful military will be the best fed.  Right or wrong, it is how it works.

Additionally, we have the potential to grow much more food than we do.  It would take some time, but the thing I noticed is that when corn prices shot up, hundreds of fallow acres around our community were suddenly busting with corn - literally transformed in a single growing season.  Captialism would lead people to grow whatever they could, not only to feed their families but to reap the windfall.  Every time I fly over the US, I am amazed at the amount of land not used for anything, some has been lost to development but much still remains a potential.

Homeowners also have more land per family than most countries.  We can all grow something, a portion of our food.  Where I live, tons of pink salmon go to waste every other year because nobody wants to harvest them.  A few people do but not many as the quality is much lower than kings, coho or red salmon.  Additionally, hatcheries could boost runs within a couple years if environmental concerns were trumped by hungry people.  Just an example of what could be used if necessary.  I think there is quite a bit of slack in the system - unless you live in NYC I guess.

Comparing this to Japan, Taiwan or other countries, we are in much better shape.

Then I guess I would need to modify my vote to say I think we will be in full blown riots if civil unrest is what is was like durin Vietnam.    

I agree that people in the country have a lot.  We used to be the richest nation in nearly ever way, but now we are literally the most in debt nation in the world.  I think many people are greedy and aren't concerned with what they already have, but how they can get more.  Americans are so incredibly wasteful. 

I agree that most people should be able to grow something of their own, but speaking as someone in their 40's, I have come to discover that most people my age do not know how to garden or can any type of food.  And more over, they do not want to know.  I grew up with it, so it's second nature to me, or at least it's coming back to me in a big hurry.   

I don't want to be a downer, but I really think it is going to get really ugly in the food area.  Unfortunately, it is going to take something pretty severe for most people to realize what is really going on. 

[theaccidentalsurvivor]

there is a Starbucks on every block!   

I knew I had entered the land of extravagance when I saw a Starbucks across the street from a Starbucks....... Not across the highway, across a 4 lane road....... This was down in the Galleria area of Houston...... One maybe closed now since they closed a bunch of stores, but I saw this maybe a year ago.

[NightOwl]

I was being unfair to Tulsa.  A friend who was there for medical school told me that locals have grocery stores, but they prefer to eat out at every meal if possible.  I know for a fact that there is at least one big supermarket across the street from the local sci-fi convention that we go to every year.

We've been going to most of the worldcons since 2000.  We use the opportunity to check out what other cities are like.  Philly had a nice farmers market sort of thing with a giant food court right there in the middle of town.  We didn't see much of Anaheim other than the Disney area, but a side trip down to San Diego revealed many Albertsons and Wal-Marts.  San Jose, Chicago, Toronto, Boston, downtown Denver, Yokohama, Atlanta (went to Dragon Con one year) -- grocery stores are more expensive and harder to find.

These places are nice to visit - excellent restaurants, cultural exhibits, architecture, historical sites, etc.  But I don't want to be anywhere near them if things go post-apocalyptic.

[archer]

Diego revealed many Albertsons and Wal-Marts.  San Jose, Chicago, Toronto, Boston, downtown Denver, Yokohama, Atlanta (went to Dragon Con one year) -- grocery stores are more expensive and harder to find.

I live in San Jose and know the surrounding cities pretty well. There are grocery stores every few blocks in the areas where people live, but if you get stuck in a commercial/office area you will be hard pressed to find food.

[NightOwl]

I live in San Jose and know the surrounding cities pretty well. There are grocery stores every few blocks in the areas where people live, but if you get stuck in a commercial/office area you will be hard pressed to find food.

I liked visiting San Jose.  Very clean, nice weather, lots of Silicon Valley history.  I had to go tap on the giant palm trees to check if they were real.

In general I was referring to dense "downtown" areas.  I think you are right, the most danger in those places will be if a disaster happens during weekday business hours or in the middle of a major convention.  Tourists like myself (with no food storage and who don't recognize the local version of a "grocery store" at first sight) will be in extra trouble.

Many places are all "downtown" by my standards though...

[Stein]

Then I guess I would need to modify my vote to say I think we will be in full blown riots if civil unrest is what is was like durin Vietnam.    

I agree that people in the country have a lot.  We used to be the richest nation in nearly ever way, but now we are literally the most in debt nation in the world.  I think many people are greedy and aren't concerned with what they already have, but how they can get more.  Americans are so incredibly wasteful. 

I agree that most people should be able to grow something of their own, but speaking as someone in their 40's, I have come to discover that most people my age do not know how to garden or can any type of food.  And more over, they do not want to know.  I grew up with it, so it's second nature to me, or at least it's coming back to me in a big hurry.   

I don't want to be a downer, but I really think it is going to get really ugly in the food area.  Unfortunately, it is going to take something pretty severe for most people to realize what is really going on. 

You very well could be right.  An interesting side note is the increasing flight away from GMO and foreign mass-produced food.  My town is only 14,000 people and we will have a full four CSA farms within a short drive from my house.  This doesn't include the berry farms, dairies or meat operations.  I am very much surprised at the growth of organic and local produce.

We have forgotten, but we can learn as long as we get to it before everyone believes the gov't is the answer to providing all we need.

[Tycoon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WAUjmhxUHI

[Sid]

Civil unrest and full blown country-wide riots are two separate things.  We had civil unrest during the Vietnam war and food was readily available.  My version of civil unrest is localized and not sustained riots on a daily basis.

It is true that short term civil unrest will not likely lead to food shortages, but food shortages could easily lead to sustained civil unrest.  It was debasement of money and food shortages that brought on the French Revolution where the aristocrats were overthrown.

What could cause food shortages in the US?  Financial problems on the farms related to prices, costs, or unavailability of credit, all of which we are experiencing now.  Energy, which is a fundamental problem we have going forward.  Weather.  Crop diseases.  Unemployment, hence inability to buy enough food.

 

[Louisiana Suvivor]

monsonto suing everyone. obama taxing us dead. congress spending like it's going out of style. israel about to go to war with middle east more than we are......it's right around the corner folks. if this were chess, our country would be in check. we're just trying to run for our lives. we're on D. it's hard to get outta that situation.

[mash]

The UN article keeps mentioning a "right" to food.  I'm skeptical...  Unless it's one of those non-enumerated 9th amendment rights or 10th amendment powers.  Which would make it a personal or state matter and not federal anyway.  I'm pretty sure our state and tribal governments already issue food stamps to the poor, and the rest of us exercise our "right" to food by paying cash.

Hm, OK I could have probably found a better source. But the "right" to food was not the issue I was trying to talk about.

I think we are looking at a world-wide Grapes of Wrath scenario right now, where all the little guys, all the family farms and small producers are getting squeezed out of the market by the big ag corporations. If a couple million people starve in the process of building market share, well hey it's nothing personal, just business...

[union hill]

The UN article keeps mentioning a "right" to food.  I'm skeptical...  Unless it's one of those non-enumerated 9th amendment rights or 10th amendment powers.  Which would make it a personal or state matter and not federal anyway.  I'm pretty sure our state and tribal governments already issue food stamps to the poor, and the rest of us exercise our "right" to food by paying cash.

The nice people at the UN like to invent goofy new "human rights" every day.  Now if we could just get them to admit that each person has a right to arms and a right to be left the heck alone...

These kinds of "rights" are really insiduous... unlike things like the "right to free speech", which only requires that noone forcibly silences you, your "right" to food (housing, healthcare, etc.) is meaningless without the "duty" of society to provide it, i.e. take from others and spread the wealth. Attempts at these types of "rights" is just an attempt to mandate socialism.

[Harold J. Forbes]

I knew I had entered the land of extravagance when I saw a Starbucks across the street from a Starbucks....... Not across the highway, across a 4 lane road....... This was down in the Galleria area of Houston...... One maybe closed now since they closed a bunch of stores, but I saw this maybe a year ago.

I don't know of adjacent Starbucks around the Galleria, but I do know they have two across the street from one another near River Oaks (Shepherd and West Gray). At least there are a decent number of grocery stores in those areas.

It's funny Tulsa keeps getting mentioned for lack of grocery stores. I had to go up there for business more times than I care to remember, and now that I think about it I only found two grocery stores all the times I was up there (one Albertsons and a Super WalMart). I never really found that many good places to eat out while I was there either, so I'm not sure what the heck those people do for food.

Does anyone else worry about continuing consolidation in the grocery business? Houston is lucky to have a very competitive grocery market (Kroger, Randalls, Fiesta, HEB, Walmart, Super Target, and tons of smaller chains and ethnic grocers), but what about places like Baton Rouge where WalMart controls almost the entire grocery market? If something happens to disrupt WalMart's supply chains places like that will be in a world of hurt very quickly, whereas more competitive markets will at least have other outlets whose supply chain may remain uninterrupted.

[theaccidentalsurvivor]

I don't know of adjacent Starbucks around the Galleria, but I do know they have two across the street from one another near River Oaks (Shepherd and West Gray). At least there are a decent number of grocery stores in those areas.

It's funny Tulsa keeps getting mentioned for lack of grocery stores. I had to go up there for business more times than I care to remember, and now that I think about it I only found two grocery stores all the times I was up there (one Albertsons and a Super WalMart). I never really found that many good places to eat out while I was there either, so I'm not sure what the heck those people do for food.

Does anyone else worry about continuing consolidation in the grocery business? Houston is lucky to have a very competitive grocery market (Kroger, Randalls, Fiesta, HEB, Walmart, Super Target, and tons of smaller chains and ethnic grocers), but what about places like Baton Rouge where WalMart controls almost the entire grocery market? If something happens to disrupt WalMart's supply chains places like that will be in a world of hurt very quickly, whereas more competitive markets will at least have other outlets whose supply chain may remain uninterrupted.

Agreed! I like living in a place that has a variety of options. In any given week, we frequent at least 3 of the grocers for different deals..... HEB, Kroger, and Walmart usually..... It saves us money buying on the cheap and allows us to get the best price for each item.... I bet most people dont realixe that Rotel brand tomatoes and peppers has a price range anywhere between $.89 & $1.29 depending on the week and store you go to! Also the easiest way to keep a company producing is to make sure you buy from them! So and added benefit of spending our money smarter is that we are splitting the money between three firms that have to compete for our dollars.

[TexSquirrel]

Whats with the 'Caution Do Not Enter' tape? 

Spoiled food.
No power or air conditioning.
They didn't want to smell it!

[NightOwl]

Tulsa only came up because I was making fun of Tulsa residents a little.  A friend who lived there for a few years was always talking about how people there usually eat in restaurants.  She reported that they almost never cook at home.

Tulsa really does have grocery stores.  The scifi convention that I'm going to this weekend has a big Reasor's right across the street.  Down the road a little is an asian grocery.

But that brings up something worth thinking about, a point that I tried to make earlier in the thread.  Travelers don't always know where to get food after the restaurants and convenience stores have shut down due to an emergency.  By the time an outsider figures out what a "grocery store" ought to look like and where to find one, the locals will have cleaned it out.

So if you find yourself staying in a strange place, it'd be a good idea to scout out the grocery stores right away.  At the very least you'll save money on travel snacks.

[Harold J. Forbes]

So if you find yourself staying in a strange place, it'd be a good idea to scout out the grocery stores right away.  At the very least you'll save money on travel snacks.

Amen, brother. Back when I was an auditor and traveled for work, the grocery store would be my first stop after I left the airport. I am a total Diet Coke fiend, and the cheap bastard in me refuses to pay $2 for a 12oz can at the hotel or pay for snacks out of the minibar. I'd make my grocery run at the beginning of the week and would be stocked with "audit snacks" until it was time to go home. Of course, this can be a very interesting experience when you are traveling internationally. 

I never really thought of it from a survivalist POV, but I can see where it would be very beneficial.

[CHI_Survival]

Do you have a source for this? I am just curious to look it up myself.

Marie did not say that, but not too many people know that. Its not common knowledge. However, it is often used to illustrate a point. Aristocratic decadence.

100 dollar steak and 500 dollar wine, if true, is excess, and especially in financial turmoil like we now face as a nation.

Where he wrote 'Obama' and 'Michelle' replace with John McCain and his wife and tell me if it still sounds racist. Why do I say replace their names? Because I think we would still be in the same boat either way. So if it sound racist both ways, then yes it is racist, but if it isn't...well...you might want to rethink saying that word everytime someone disagrees with Obama and his wife's policies.

Here, here....

[Louisiana Suvivor]

you didn't hear? if you don't agree with the pres you can be labeled a racist man. this may cause some civil unrest if this one sided rule keeps going on.