Author Topic: handcuffs or restraints?  (Read 12891 times)

Offline theBINKYhunter

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handcuffs or restraints?
« on: February 27, 2014, 08:04:58 AM »
at the risk of this conversation continually going off topic and risking certain expulsion to the dead threads...

do you have or have you thought of handcuffs or disposable restraints having a place in your preps? (FOR SECURITY!!!!!) i hadn't thought about it before and today i saw a deal on disposable restraints that got me thinking about this.

i can see the value of having them on hand in case a security issue arises where you need to detain/restrain bad guys or suspected bad guys while things get sorted out. i think these would really only be reasonable in a SHTF scenarios, or if you are on your land and the assumed bad guy is clearly trespassing. i could see some big time legal trouble coming down if you tried to use them when police are still functioning and there is a semblance of law and order.

i don't know if i would carry them in a BOB, but a pair or two might make sense and have their place there. was wondering what others think or have done in this area?

Offline David in MN

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 08:46:57 AM »
I have a set to practice picking. If you're gonna pick locks, you might want the #1 lock in the world.

They have some weird abilities like locking a revolver hammer down or locking a removed slide to a triggerguard but there is no room in my preps. They are heavy, bulky, and really not that practical. I don't carry a chain & padlock either.

On the other hand, everyone should get the feel of real handcuffs. They are agonizing on the best days to us broad shouldered folk and on bad days cause nerve damage, numbness, radial neuropathy, bruises, clots, etc. In short, I'd like to see good people recognize how brutal these things are. They have no place in civilized society and are a holdover from the days of the Spanish Inquisition.

Last, I don't ever want to be in the position of detaining someone. That will lead to a long conversation where I say "I was so scared of him I chose to force him to stay near to me." Sounds like crappy logic to me.

Offline theBINKYhunter

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 08:54:41 AM »
Last, I don't ever want to be in the position of detaining someone. That will lead to a long conversation where I say "I was so scared of him I chose to force him to stay near to me." Sounds like crappy logic to me.

that's what i was thinking, and why i was curious what people thought. i can see a place for them in a really bad situation where there are no more LEO's patrolling around making arrests. i would never think of using them in normal times unless, like i said, it is clearly a trespassing issue on your property and even then, i wonder about the ramifications of doing that.

Offline strensk

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 08:55:04 AM »
Yeah, I thought about that too. I would go with disposable restraints. Good multi-tasker in case you need to McGyver a temporary repair to something. Plus there is no danger of losing a key.

Offline archer

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2014, 09:13:00 AM »
If I had to restrain someone, I'd go for the zip ties. That way, they are cheap, hard to pick, and I can use them for other things...

Offline MTUCache

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2014, 09:28:05 AM »
I was going to mention the zip-tie route as well... I've seen all the videos about how they're not effective and how certain people can break out of them very easily, but as a quick and cheap way to secure someone I can't imagine many things better.

Plus, they're so useful for so many other things, it's kind of a no-brainer to have a few hundred of them lying around. If you really wanted to put somebody in lock down you could use like a dozen of those things and truss them up pretty good.

Offline trekker111

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2014, 10:03:00 AM »
Handcuffs are heavy. Cops use them for cost effectiveness, and ease. If you are restraining multiple people a day, day in and day out, you are operating under a different paradigm than someone who may one day need to restrain someone. Some states have banned the use of disposable restraints, or restricted their use, due to the increased risk of injury associated with them. Regular handcuffs are much more safe, and when properly applied, have nearly no risk of injury to the person wearing them. They can be hard to properly apply to someone who is resisting, but are easier than disposables to apply in the same situation. I was handcuffed over 100 times, pulled to the ground and drug across the floor by one wrist in a handcuff, put into joint locks while prone, etc, while in the academy, with no injury. It's not comfortable, but someone who is not resisting should have no fear of injury from handcuffs.

The big disposable zip tie type restraints that are like a hug double ended zip tie where the ends fold back into the middle, are much easier to use than 2 big zip ties, which also are more likely to cut the skin. They are what I would recommend for your use. Just make sure you also have a safe and effective way of removing them, and remember they only go one way, and if they get to tight, there is no loosening them except cutting them off and trying again with a new pair. When we use them, we have to document why disposables were used instead of handcuffs, and switch them for handcuffs as soon as possible.

For a complete shtf, where there is no law, and the likelihood of it returning ( the .00000000001% chance scenarios) do whatever. For the more likely scenarios, where rule of law will return, and in situations where it hasn't left, like day to day life, you really need to check the laws of your state. Some states allow a person to detain someone who committed a crime against them. Some allow it if the crime was a felony, but not for a misdemeanor, and others not at all. In states where it is legal it has to be a crime in progress, and the probable cause burden is on you.

The best advice I can give is if you are not in immediate danger, it is best to take pictures of the subject and allow them to leave, and keep sight of them until LE arrives. If you are in danger, do what you have to do to save yourself, but no more. It would suck to handcuff someone to a tree because they were trespassing and when the cops get there he gets a ticket for trespassing, and you go to jail for kidnapping or false imprisonment. Or the guy turns around and sues you and wins. That scenario is possible in some states. In others the cops will show up, and cart the guy off to jail.

Offline Cedar

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2014, 10:08:40 AM »
I got Gorilla tape, duct tape, electrical tape, regular rope, baling twine and bailing wire. If I deem the necessity of tying someone up, I am going to make sure they stay tied up.

Cedar


Offline doublehelix

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2014, 10:17:21 AM »
Restraints are only effective if coupled with a thorough search of the restrained party for items they can use to become un-restrained.

 ;D

Offline Jack Crabb

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2014, 10:23:41 AM »
How exactly do these restraints get on your subjects/suspects?

Now that they are restrained, then what?

Offline trekker111

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2014, 10:33:56 AM »
How exactly do these restraints get on your subjects/suspects?

Now that they are restrained, then what?

The didn't even click when I made my first reply. I am so used to handcuffing people I didn't even think about it. I either take them to jail, or conclude the reason I had them handcuffed, remove them, and send them about their way.

If it were a citizens arrest situation, then when the LEOs get there, they would put their own handcuffs on, remove your restraints and return them, and that would be that. In an extreme event, where the police are not coming and may never come, what would you do, keep them as a pet? If the plan is to restrain them to a tree and leave, that is unconscionable.


Offline Cedar

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2014, 11:02:47 AM »
what would you do, keep them as a pet?

Probably not

If the plan is to restrain them to a tree and leave, that is unconscionable.

Probably not

Cedar

Offline David in MN

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2014, 11:14:28 AM »
Just do a quick search of the court rulings. Right, wrong, or other police get sued over their use of restraints. It's even been argued as a 4th Amendment issue. I don't have the badge protecting me.

I was handcuffed over 100 times, pulled to the ground and drug across the floor by one wrist in a handcuff, put into joint locks while prone, etc, while in the academy, with no injury. It's not comfortable, but someone who is not resisting should have no fear of injury from handcuffs.

Holy crap, you're tougher than me. My cop buddy "arrested" me once. He interlocked my fingers, squeezed them together (dislocating 1), pulled me to my knees, cuffed me, and stepped on the cuffs. It hurt like hell. I don't know why he agreed to box me afterwords but I got mine. To this day I fear arrest and he fears my hook.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2014, 05:18:39 PM »
Last, I don't ever want to be in the position of detaining someone. That will lead to a long conversation where I say "I was so scared of him I chose to force him to stay near to me." Sounds like crappy logic to me.

that's what i was thinking, and why i was curious what people thought. i can see a place for them in a really bad situation where there are no more LEO's patrolling around making arrests. i would never think of using them in normal times unless, like i said, it is clearly a trespassing issue on your property and even then, i wonder about the ramifications of doing that.

The only real-life-actually-happened situation I can think of occurred after Katrina, to the family of one of my son's friends.  Some low-life decided to loot their house in the middle of the night, and was surprised that the family was back in town.  Dad and Uncle had the guy at gunpoint, but couldn't call the cops because the phones were all out.  Couldn't send for the cops either, because of the curfew.  They finally hog-tied him and sent for the police in the morning.  The whole thing was so straightforward that there were no subsequent legal problems.

As for me, I keep a bundle of large zip-ties in the house.  They have many uses.

Offline trekker111

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2014, 08:39:39 PM »
Just do a quick search of the court rulings. Right, wrong, or other police get sued over their use of restraints. It's even been argued as a 4th Amendment issue. I don't have the badge protecting me.

Holy crap, you're tougher than me. My cop buddy "arrested" me once. He interlocked my fingers, squeezed them together (dislocating 1), pulled me to my knees, cuffed me, and stepped on the cuffs. It hurt like hell. I don't know why he agreed to box me afterwords but I got mine. To this day I fear arrest and he fears my hook.

Your friend was screwing with you.

Offline The Professor

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2014, 09:46:36 PM »
In my Hostile Environment Resource Kit (aka, Active Shooter's Kit), I have 5 of the nylon double-cuffs.  As others have pointed out, regular cuffs are heavy.  If you preload the nylon cuffs, they're relatively easy to affix. . .especially if you're not a cop.  While I do have rather extensive experience in the actual cuffing/tieing of BG's, most of that is with a partner assisting. Personally, I'd rather use Handcuffs when 1v1, but that's why I have an A**hole lawyer on retainer.

For the GHB/BOB's, I just use the standard Zip-tie-style restraints.  However, I use the ACTUAL restraints, not just the inexpensive Zipties which are easier to break.

The Professor

Offline Veritas

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2014, 10:53:51 PM »
restraints. they are not as heavy. I carry 2. they weigh almost nothing and although in shtf I would not want to use them there could be a situation in which they would be warranted. they are also quicker to deploy than tape.

Offline bdhutier

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2014, 11:01:18 PM »
Your friend was screwing with you.

Or worse... Sounds like things I might do if I were trying to hurt someone.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and say he was showing off, and took it too far.

Offline David in MN

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2014, 06:05:25 AM »
I was a little dumb and naive and probably used my mouth more than I should have. I have a bit of testosterone as well. That said, he knew what to do. Eye opener on how some tools can be used. It gave me a new perspective that restraints are a use of force. I've been beat up before, in the ring and the dojo, so I was fine.

Offline theBINKYhunter

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2014, 06:31:44 AM »
good points all around. i think i may end up adding a few of the purpose made zip tie versions to the gear as others have said they have multiple uses. probably never need them but you know what is said... better to not need and have than need and not have.

Offline shambo

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2014, 07:53:54 PM »
In my Hostile Environment Resource Kit (aka, Active Shooter's Kit), I have 5 of the nylon double-cuffs.  As others have pointed out, regular cuffs are heavy.  If you preload the nylon cuffs, they're relatively easy to affix. . .especially if you're not a cop.  While I do have rather extensive experience in the actual cuffing/tieing of BG's, most of that is with a partner assisting. Personally, I'd rather use Handcuffs when 1v1, but that's why I have an A**hole lawyer on retainer.

For the GHB/BOB's, I just use the standard Zip-tie-style restraints.  However, I use the ACTUAL restraints, not just the inexpensive Zipties which are easier to break.

The Professor
To elaborate on the Professor's point,  Be very careful using run of the mill automotive grade zip ties.  Quality varies greatly.  They tend to degrade over time.  Some times I'll go through a whole bag of ties just to get 10% not to break immediately.  Ambient temps on the low end cause a lot of breakage as well.  I go through thousands of zip ties in a year.  If I was going to use a plastic restraint I wouldn't use automotive ones as  my first choice.  Spend the  money and get the proper plastic restraints.  I would even use Gorilla tape before automotive zip ties.  IMHO.

Offline mootz

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2014, 08:43:49 PM »
For those wanting to get the real deal zip tie restraints, go to the local cop shop for ones the made for it.  I once went on a "loose (power) wire" situation where the FD came out to assess.  I'm not sure if it was a power wire, phone wire or a cable wire (I can't remember how high it was on the pole), but the FD guy was trying to think of a way to secure it.  I told him I had a "flex cuff" and he said that would do for now.  It's been at least 6 years, and my flex cuff is still up there securing the wire!  That's UV and weather protection proof that  those things are durable.  There are several models of "flex cuffs" available, so choose your poison.  But in a zombie apocalypse, maybe you can tell the restrained subject where to go to get a saw blade to cut the thing off, maybe a mile away while you can watch him.  Just a thought...

Offline Josh the Aspie

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2014, 12:51:52 AM »
If you ever wind up knocking your opponent out, you might want to restrain your opponent, in case he wakes up.  The safety / self-defense case there is clear.  You never want a bad guy waking up, then attacking you when your back is turned.

Offline shambo

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2014, 08:36:19 AM »
If you ever wind up knocking your opponent out, you might want to restrain your opponent, in case he wakes up.  The safety / self-defense case there is clear.  You never want a bad guy waking up, then attacking you when your back is turned.
That's good advice.  I learned that from all the slasher dead teenager movies out there.  Jason might come back to life.  BWAA HAA HAA HAA.  [evil laughter].

Offline Josh the Aspie

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2014, 12:07:30 PM »
Heck, that might even make it easier to defend yourself in court.  "This man fired until he had emptied his clip, rather than stopping once his victim hit the ground.  This clearly cannot be self defense." closes the prosecutor to the jury.

Then, in reply, argues the defense: "My client was afraid for his safety, and that of his family.  Otherwise, even after firing that many rounds, why would he go to the trouble of restraining the attacker?   Clearly, his main concern was making sure his attacker did not get back up to attack his family again."

Offline Big_Al

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2014, 04:44:41 PM »
I had some zip ties for combat patrols in AF.  We had a tie rod end pop out of the wheel hub assembly.  We called back to base 30 miles away, and they told us the recovery vehicle was at least 12 hours from helping.  I had my buddy steer the wheel, popped the tie rod end back in the joint, and used two heavy duty zip ties to secure it in place.  We then took some spool wire and secured that in place for redundancy.  We travelled the 30 miles at 10mph through a mountain pass and made it back.  No telling what would have happened to the 12 of us if we stayed the night in that remote village in the mountains.

Heavy zip ties have many uses besides restraints.  Besides I can bust out of zip ties secured very easily tied to my front and rear.  I snap them off over my hips in a jerking motion.  Just you tube escaping zip ties.  They may restrain your average six pack Joe, but should not be considered for restraining trained folks.

Offline soupbone

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2014, 07:13:05 PM »
I like Cedar's solution - duck tape. Getting handcuffs [normal or FlexCuffs] on someone isn't easy especially if they don't want to be cuffed. On top of that, it is quite easy to inadvertently hurt someone if done wrong. Or get yourself hurt. If you really, Really, REALLY have to restrain someone, a couple or three turns of strong tape will do the trick.

That being said, I really can't see the need to restrain someone. Generally speaking, we aren't the police and have no where to take the prisoner after apprehension. Take plenty of pictures, document the snot out of the incident [including witness' statements] and warn-and-send. If you think there will be a problem with this individual after he is released, warn-and-send-without-pants. "They got guns and they took my pants!!" should dissuade his buddies from trying to get revenge.

Oh, and as an aside, States usually have pocket guides to their Criminal Codes intended for ready reference by Police Officers. If you are going to "enforce the law" post SHTF, it would be in your best interest to know what "the law" actually is. Keeps you from over-reacting especially when tensions are high. It is better to learn now that, for example, you can't shoot someone for stealing stuff than it would be after things get back to normal and you are standing in front of the judge.

soupbone

Offline Big_Al

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2014, 03:44:31 PM »
You tube escape duct tape. 

The point is any restraints like duct tape, zip ties, rope, can be compromised by a trained individual.  I come at it thinking your going to somehow restrain someone is probably fruitless, never mind the legal consequences (unless making certain felony arrests as a citizen).  Getting that close to a crazy to put those restraints on could probably get you hurt by that crazy or worse.  All this stuff comes back to having the skill set and knowing the legal boundaries, not just throwing some junk in a BOB and calling it good.

Actual police handcuffs are the best option, if trained and you have the authority to do so.  Escaping handcuffs is tough, even with a makeshift key that I tape to the inside of my belt while in certain countries...

Offline OutWestTX

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2014, 07:09:45 AM »
If I had to restrain someone, I'd go for the zip ties. That way, they are cheap, hard to pick, and I can use them for other things...

Zip ties are easy to break when used as restraints.  Don't depend on them.  Youtube has videos on how to defeat them.

Offline N8TV Whisker Biscuit

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Re: handcuffs or restraints?
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2019, 04:42:41 PM »
In a pinch, heavy duty zip ties are my go to. They are light for carrying, cost effective, temporarily restraint so you can move on quickly! You ain't gonna lug  around a prisoner for Pete's sake. Good for other uses as well.