Author Topic: Barter economy after a crash  (Read 7943 times)

Offline Doc Savage

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • Karma: 2
Barter economy after a crash
« on: October 04, 2008, 07:22:31 AM »
Originally posted in the Bison Survival Blog:
John was headed to town today to check out the local Barter Fair that was being held every other Friday.

Edited by Jerseyvince in accordance with DMCA rules and regulations, sorry no direct link aval.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 01:10:18 PM by JerseyVince »

Offline Doc Savage

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • Karma: 2
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2008, 07:24:15 AM »
OK, after reading this and the bater fair capter in "Patriots" my question is how do you decide whats worth what?

Offline DeltaEchoVictor

  • Evil Forum Overlord
  • Administrator On Leave
  • Survival Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 5705
  • Karma: 542
  • Vincit Omnia Veritas
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2008, 08:26:11 AM »
Welcome aboard Doc.

OK, after reading this and the barter fair chapter in "Patriots" my question is how do you decide whats worth what?

Good question.  I guess it depends on what you need & how bad you need it.  It's not a bad thing to buy extras of stuff you use regularly, or even don't use at all, simply from the stand point that someone might need it sometime in the future & you may be able to trade it for something that you need.  In that case what you have is only valuable to you if you can find something to trade for it. 

How do you value your time today?  Everyday most of us get up & go to a job, we trade our time on that job for money, which is really only worthless paper.  We trade that paper for things we need or want, what other value does it have to us?  I guess the point of all of this is that value is relative. 

It's my opinion that skills are going to be the most valuable in a barter system.  The ability to raise livestock, vegetables, build shelter or houses.  Essentially you'll be able to trade your time for items you need without every really trading away anything you have already.   

Bighorn

  • Guest
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2008, 12:08:36 PM »
Great story, It really makes me think. Especially about cartridge type weapons. Black powder night be a better investment to stock up with. As well as bow and arrows.

dreadstalker

  • Guest
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2008, 03:49:20 PM »
IMO your best barter is what is supposed to be right between your ears. Knowledge on how to do things, the experince to know what works and what doesn't and the basic tools you need to accomplish that skill.

Lets put it this way. A person with medical training won't go hungry for long. Neither will someone who knows and is skilled at forge work. There is a lot of skills out there that are going to come in real handy. Question is are you up to par on those skills.


Offline Doc Savage

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • Karma: 2
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2008, 08:17:17 PM »
So, lets say that I have marketable skills and barter goods.  How do you decide on an exchange rate.  Are a pair of shoes worth a package of razor blades?  Do a dozen .22 shells cover a pulled tooth?

dreadstalker

  • Guest
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2008, 09:14:01 PM »
Its's called horse trading. In other words you work on getting the best deal that you can. Don't worry the other guy will be doing exactly the same.

After the dust has settled a bit you will naturally find things getting a bit more , shalle we say, stable as to the worth of things. But supply and demand is what will drive the price of goods as will the supply and demand of your marketable skills.

0degreesK

  • Guest
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2008, 10:34:13 AM »
I've been thinking about this a bit.  I bought a case of liquor this past friday for a couple of reasons: 1) I like to drink and being without booze when the SHTF would make things that much worse, but 2) I think that liquor will be valuable.  I think the same thing for cigarettes and chocolate.  I don't have a lot of faith in money because it's only valuable if the other person thinks it's valuable.  If you're starving, what's worth more: a loaf of bread or an ounce of gold?

Offline Doc Savage

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • Karma: 2
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 07:42:54 PM »
If you barter tequila, run quickly after the sale.

edibleyards

  • Guest
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2008, 08:42:41 PM »
A few weeks ago, I was doing some research and came across a PDF that had info about what to store and what would be most valuable in trade. I can't remember where I found it, somewhere in the same vicinity where I found the screenplay of The Patriot.

Anyway, it had a short list of items that were easiest to stockpile and would have high value based on storage, possible demand, etc. They had listed first razor blades and second alcohol. I don't remember what else it had, and sorry I don't have the document name or link.

If you have lots of sugar, you can make alcohol out of fruits or veggies.

SueDonim

  • Guest
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2008, 09:02:02 PM »
These are all good points.   But I also think this is a good exercise even if it doesn't hit the fan.  Say it just hits the wall.  The economy goes way down, but the monetary system still functions.

You may not need to barter with these items.  But they could be a good source of cash in a pinch.

Let's say all the Fed's incantations do not bring stability to the banking system.  The banks stop lending and companies can't get the funds they need to operate.  Gillette shuts down operations (even temporarily).  Price of razor blades goes way up.  If you've got a stash, you could bring in a few dollars when you most need it.

Point is. the world doesn't have to go to hell in a handbasket for this to make sense.

Thanks for bringing this up.  I'm not even finished with my own preparations, but so far I have only thought about what I might need, and not what others could use

Offline wingrider

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: 1
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2008, 09:05:55 PM »
I would think you would have to be somewhat cautious with whom you traded firearms and ammunition in a true long term SHTF as in the OP. While they would be of great value, and increase in value as the duration increases, the downside possibility of having the weapons used against you or others becomes problematic.
I'm not saying I wouldn't under some circumstances, but I would be very cautious.

Offline Roknrandy

  • He That Rocks:Viewer Discretion is Advised
  • Moderator On Leave
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2708
  • Karma: 68
  • Master Spammer Obliterator
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2008, 09:23:10 PM »
This list has been floating around the net for awhile, some good items some odd (atomizers with no power at this point if your bartering?)

100 Items To Disappear First In A Panic
By Joseph Almond
5-21-6

   #1. Generators (Good ones cost dearly. Gas storage, risky. Noisy.. target of thieves; maintenance, etc.)
   #2. Water Filters/Purifiers (Shipping delays increasing.)
   #3. Portable Toilets (Increasing in price every twomonths.)
   #4. Seasoned Firewood (About $100 per cord; wood takes 6 - 12 mos. to become dried, for home uses.)
   #5. Lamp Oil, Wicks, Lamps (First choice: Buy CLEAR oil. If scarce, stockpile ANY!)
   #6. Coleman Fuel (URGENT $2.69-$3.99/gal. Impossible to stockpile too much.)
   #7. Guns, Ammunition, Pepper Spray, Knives, Clubs, Bats & Slingshots
   #8. Hand-Can openers & hand egg beaters, whisks (Life savers!)
   #9. Honey/Syrups/white, brown sugars
   #10. Rice - Beans - Wheat (White rice is now $12.95 - 50# bag. Sam's Club, stock depleted often.)
   #11. Vegetable oil (for cooking) (Without it food burns/must be boiled, etc.)
   #12. Charcoal & Lighter fluid (Will become scarce suddenly.)
   #13. Water containers (Urgent Item to obtain. An size. Small: HARD CLEAR PLASTIC ONLY)
   #14. Mini Heater head (Propane) (Without this item, propane won't heat a room.)
   #15. Grain Grinder (Non-electric)
   #16. Propane Cylinders (Urgent: Definite shortages will occur by September, 1999.)
   #17. Michael Hyatt's Y2K Survival Guide (BEST single y2k handbook for sound advice/tips.)
   #18. Mantles: Aladdin, Coleman, etc. (Without this item, longer-term lighting is difficult.)
   #19. Baby Supplies: Diapers/formula/ointments/aspirin, etc
   #20. Washboards, Mop Bucket w/wringer (for Laundry)
   #21. Cookstoves (Propane, Coleman & Kerosene)
   #22. Vitamins (Critical, due 10 Y2K-forced daily canned food diets.)
   #23. Propane Cylinder Handle-Holder (Urgent: Small canister use is dangerous without this item.)
   #24. Feminine Hygiene/Haircare/Skin products
   #25. Thermal underwear (Tops and bottoms)
   #26. Bow saws, axes and hatchets & Wedges (also, honing oil)
   #27. Aluminum foil Reg. & Hvy. Duty (Great Cooking & Barter item)
   #28. Gasoline containers (Plastic or Metal)
   #29. Garbage bags (Impossible to have too many.)
   #30. Toilet Paper, Kleenex, paper towels
   #31. Milk - Powdered & Condensed (Shake liquid every 3 to 4 months.)
   #32. Garden seeds (Non-hybrid) (A MUST)
   #33. Clothes pins/line/hangers (A MUST)
   #34. Coleman's Pump Repair Kit: 1(800) 835-3278
   #35. Tuna Fish (in oil)
   #36. Fire extinguishers (or.. large box of Baking soda in every room...)
   #37. First aid kits
   #38. Batteries (all sizes... buy furthest-out for Expiration Dates)
   #39. Garlic, spices & vinegar, baking supplies
   #40. BIG DOGS (and plenty of dog food)
   #41. Flour, yeast & salt
   #42. Matches (3 box/$1 .44 at WalMart: "Strike Anywhere" preferred. Boxed, wooden matches will go first.)
   #43. Writing paper/pads/pencils/solar calculators
   #44. Insulated ice chests (good for keeping items from freezing in Wintertime)
   #45. Workboots, belts, Levis & durable shirts
   #46. Flashlights/LIGIITSTICKS & torches, "No. 76 Dietz" Lanterns
   #47. Journals, Diaries & Scrapbooks (Jot down ideas, feelings, experiences: Historic times!)
   #48. Garbage cans Plastic (great for storage, water transporting - if with wheels)
   #49. Men's Hygiene: Shampoo, Toothbrush/paste, Mouthwash/floss, nail clippers, etc
   #50. Cast iron cookware (sturdy, efficient)
   #51. Fishing supplies/tools
   #52. Mosquito coils/repellent sprays/creams
   #53. Duct tape
   #54. Tarps/stakes/twine/nails/rope/spikes
   #55. Candles
   #56. Laundry detergent (Liquid)
   #57. Backpacks & Duffle bags
   #58. Garden tools & supplies
   #59. Scissors, fabrics & sewing supplies
   #60. Canned Fruits, Veggies, Soups, stews, etc.
   #61. Bleach (plain, NOT scented: 4 to 6% sodium hypochlorite)
   #62. Canning supplies (Jars/lids/wax)
   #63. Knives & Sharpening tools: files, stones, steel
   #64. Bicycles... Tires/tubes/pumps/chains, etc.
   #65. Sleeping bags & blankets/pillows/mats
   #66. Carbon Monoxide Alarm (battery powered)
   #67. Board Games Cards, Dice
   #68. d-Con Rat poison, MOUSE PRUFE II, Roach Killer
   #69. Mousetraps, Ant traps & cockroach magnets
   #70. Paper plates/cups/utensils (stock up, folks...)
   #71. Baby Wipes, diapers, tampons, oils, waterless & Anti-bacterial soap (saves a lot of water)
   #72. Rain gear, rubberized boots, etc.
   #73. Shaving supplies (razors & creams, talc, after shave)
   #74. Hand pumps & siphons (for water and for fuels)
   #75. Soysauce, vinegar, boullions/gravy/soup base
   #76. Reading glasses
   #77. Chocolate/Cocoa/Tang/Punch (water enhancers)
   #78. "Survival-in-a-Can"
   #79. Woolen clothing, scarves/ear-muffs/mittens
   #80. BSA - New 1998 - Boy Scout Handbook (also, Leader's Catalog)
   #81. Roll-on Window Insulation Kit (MANCO)
   #82. Graham crackers, saltines, pretzels, Trail mix/Jerky
   #83. Popcorn, Peanut Butter, Nuts
   #84. Socks, Underwear, T-shirts, etc. (extras)
   #85. Lumber (all types)
   #86. Wagons & carts (for transport to & from open Flea markets)
   #87. Cots & Inflatable mattresses (for extra guests)
   #88. Gloves: Work/warming/gardening, etc.
   #89. Lantern Hangers
   #90. Screen Patches, glue, nails, screws, nuts & bolts
   #91. Teas
   #92. Coffee
   #93. Cigarettes
   #94. Wine/Liquors (for bribes, medicinal, etc.)
   #95. Paraffin wax
   #96. Glue, nails, nuts, bolts, screws, etc.
   #97. Chewing gum/candies
   #98. Atomizers (for cooling/bathing)
   #99. Hats & cotton neckerchiefs
   #100. Goats/chickens

[http://www.rense.com/general71/100.htm]
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 06:50:46 AM by Roknrandy »

Offline creuzerm

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 438
  • Karma: 33
    • My Blog
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2008, 09:59:27 PM »
Its's called horse trading. In other words you work on getting the best deal that you can. Don't worry the other guy will be doing exactly the same.

After the dust has settled a bit you will naturally find things getting a bit more , shalle we say, stable as to the worth of things. But supply and demand is what will drive the price of goods as will the supply and demand of your marketable skills.

My dad's always called it horse trading too.
I grew up doing this. You don't need to wait till after a crash.

I think it's best if you can trade your skills for their stuff. They may not be able to afford to pay you for what they need you to do, but they may have something that they are willing to part with that you may want, or would know who would want it. If you exchange stuff for stuff, you may find yourself short on the right kind of stuff one day. If you barter your skills for other peoples skills or their stuff, you will always find that you have enough of your skills to go around.

A friend had his old diesel furnace turn on after the pilot light burned out. Pumped something like 500 gallons of fuel into the basement of his lake house. Talk about a stinking mess! My dad and I spent a couple of weekends gutting and rebuilding the basement. We got a pair of snowmobiles and a few other things plus a bit of cash. The sleds hadn't been used in a few years, so it worked out for both of us. He got rid of some older snowmobiles that he couldn't sell for what he had in them, we got some nice snowmobiles we couldn't afford to pay for otherwise.

A few years later we got another snowmobile that had been in an accident for rebuilding an entryway that had the door sill dry rotted. Half days work for a snowmobile that took us a weekend to fix up.

We built a deck one weekend for half a steer. Butchered. We where looking at the prices that the butcher was getting for meat, we got probably close to a thousand dollars of meat for one weekend of work. This was maybe 10 years ago, you do that math on what that is worth today. The guy was tickled because he kept a steer every year to keep the horse company. His freezer was still full from the previous year.

Our mechanic and us are always horse trading. It seems like we are always asking each other if they got any work needing to be done 'cause we got this or that that's getting about due to be fixed. Man, a bit of advice, find a good mechanic and treat him good! I always leave a case of beer on the seat when I bring the car over to get an oil change or some other minor bit of work. He is always more then willing to help out. This weekend, we needed to move a shed from one end of the yard to the other. He came over Sunday afternoon with his flatbed tow-truck, we skidded the shed onto the back of the truck and dropped it within 3 inches of where we wanted it. Took about 15 minutes. We loaded an extra woodstove we had onto the back of his truck for his shop. We both came out happy as can be. We did 2 days of moving a shed in 15 minutes, and he got a stove he needed that was worthless to us.

I am always swapping computer parts with people. Something breaks on one of their computers, they give me a call, yeah, I got a part that will work, what do I want for it, how about that old part you just upgraded? I have turned an old junk computer that was being tossed out into a 19 inch CRT about 7 years ago when they where the biggest thing around. A friend needed a printer NOW, and had a spare monitor as he had just gotten and LCD. I think I traded a floppy drive and hard drive cable for the printer. The CDROM drive for a video card, etc.

These are all things off the top of my head.

Oh, not sure if you have seen this website, but there is a guy that horse traded a red paperclip into a house in 14 trades over the course of a year. http://oneredpaperclip.blogspot.com/  That should show you the power of a barter economy even when times don't get tough!

SueDonim

  • Guest
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2008, 10:51:40 AM »
Great list Roknrandy.  Thanks

Offline Stein

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1853
  • Karma: 66
Re: Barter economy after a crash
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2008, 11:16:55 AM »
Barter is based entirely upon percieved value.  I will only trade you if I end up better off.  I assume you will do the same (else it is charity, not barter).  Thus, I will stuff I really need for stuff I don't really need.  Or, if that doesn't work I will trade for stuff I know is in high demand as I can trade someone else.

I guess the morale is that it is very dependent on people's unique situation.  If I have 1000 pounds of rice and am running low on gasoline, the value I place on gasoline vs rice is much different than my neighbors might be.

In short, the key is finding out what people need and then playing up the value of what they receive.  Also, find out what they don't value highly and get a bunch of that in return.  Keeping them from understanding your needs is also a big part.

There is a board game, Settlers of Catan that a friend introduced us to.  There are a few resources in the game that are used to score points and ultimately win.  You need to trade often to accomplish your goals while keeping others from accomplishing their goals.  It is not uncommon to trade 2:1 or even 3:1 if you uncover the right situation.