How important is OPSEC?

[Kate Change]

This isn't necessarily a female topic, but I'm a woman so I posted it here.

I'm not talking about handing out flyers with my bank balance on them, but I'm the type of person who likes to talk to friends and colleagues about the things I am doing.  Not, maybe, keeping extra food, but I love bringing in extras from my garden to share with the ladies at work and I've just about finished the rain water catchment system I've been working on and I'm very excited about it.  I'm getting chickens in the spring and am planning to build a chicken coop etc, etc...

I work with a lot of really great people and we chat.  I don't tell them I am a survivalist or prepper or use any particular labels, but I do talk about what I did last weekend.  I'm aware that I'm probably violating some degree of opsec by doing this, but I feel weird not admitting that I expanded the garden or went hiking with my husband.

So how important is it that I keep tight control over OPSEC?  I'm sure I have at least one friend at work who has a pretty good idea of the degree of preps we have in place.  No one I work with knows exactly where I live, because I have a long commute, but as time goes by, they are probably going to get the idea that we are at least a homestead.

What are your thoughts?

[Sister Wolf]

It's really a personal decision on how "opsec" you are, I think.  I'm the same way as you are.  I convinced a friend of mine that gardening is the bee's knees, and now she has a bigger (and more productive) garden than I do.  I told my mom about it, and now her trees are all fruit producers.

Nobody has to believe that you're afraid of the coming global superstorm, or aliens, or the government, or whatever the tin-foil topic of the day is.  If you don't act like a crazy person, they'll be like "oh, Kate?  She's really outdoorsy.  She's always bringing us the most delicious veggies from her garden, and she's out hiking all the time.  It sounds like she has so much fun."

I'm picky about who I allow to come to my house, but if I had a homestead, I'd probably be inviting everybody at TSP over on a regular basis, and all of the moderators here would have a key to the house and knowledge of exactly how to get to the food and ammo, should they need it.  Most everybody here knows my full name, and my mailing address, and my husband's name.  So even that level of opsec is a personal choice.  It's all in what you feel comfortable with, and how well you feel you could defend yourself, should you need to do so.

All of this is my opinion, of course.

[Kate Change]

Thanks Sisterwolf!  I guess my tinfoil hat topics would be the government and the economy, but it's pretty easy to avoid talking about politics at work and at this point our budget is being cut so badly that we can all agree the economy in our region could be a little better.  I feel a bit better about opsec now.  Reading about it, I thought I wouldn't talk about any of this stuff but once you start spending more and more time on it, it's hard to avoid talking about what you are doing.  It's important to me that I can share the things I am spending time on with the people around me.  Otherwise, I think I'll feel as though I am doing something wrong or keeping people at arms length out of fear.  I can understand how some people who might be a little less gregarious than I am might make different choices though.

[Sister Wolf]

You're welcome, darlin'.

And welcome to the forum!  You're a firecracker - all over the forum posting all kinds of great questions.  We LOVE it when new folks do what you're doing.  Keep it up!

[OKGranny]

I don't actually talk about it much. Oh the gardening, and the chickens, and stuff I do and when we used to be able to hike and camp I talked about that a lot but food stores, etc. I don't talk about. My neighbors are mostly very nervous about the fact I'm pagan so why worry them further? Anybody on here I'd tell in a heartbeat but you guys get it.

[LvsChant]

I'm with SW; I'm pretty open about what I'm doing, gardening, canning, grinding wheat, dehydrating, winemaking (just recently started), etc. There is absolutely nothing weird about what any of us are doing here, after all.

I'm less open about all the possible motivations. I typically don't get into many discussions abut SHTF or TEOTWAWKI with people (that freaks them out), but planning for power outages, bad storms, etc. just really makes sense to everyone. If they don't have a bit of a deep pantry, I tend to look at them as if they are strange

My family all know that we think hard times are coming and that everyone should do what they can to make themselves better able to ride it out. Some of them think we have lost it... but some have come along to our way of thinking. My brother is a great prepper. My youngest sister and her husband are also of like mind, just getting started on food storage. My parents are in full agreement and are very supportive of everything. I've been beating the drum about coming food price hikes for quite some time now. I'm guessing they are seeing it, even if they don't admit it.

I think sharing this information has been a good thing for our family in that they at least have food for thought (even if they have no actual food -- haha -- I kill myself).

[GreyWolf]

The last thing anyone needs is a group of hungry desperate people in a vehicle looking for a better place to live when the bad times hit.Most people who live in the city after deciding life in the rural areas will be better will only be able to travel as far as a tank of gas will take them, that is if they can find a way out with all the highways and roads clogged with like minded refugees. During times of emergency the brain is like a computor, it wants to survive and with an adrenalin rush it will spew forth every bit of pertinant information required including every person they know who can grow food.Guess where they will be coming, to your house.Can you turn them away? Can you fight them off? If you cant, be prepared for other people living in your home, eating your food, basically taking over.Can you grow enough food for all thoses extra mouths? If times get hard and the government gains more control and people get scared, they will turn in anyone they think will be expendable so the government goes after you and they stay free.This is the real world, and people will do anything and everything to survive during hard times. The nastier people are during good times, imagine how nasty they will become during bad times.

[LJH]

My neighbors are mostly very nervous about the fact I'm pagan so why worry them further? Anybody on here I'd tell in a heartbeat but you guys get it.

Ain't it hilarious, the reactions you can get? I've actually had people back up a step when I tell them I'm a pagan, like I'm gonna snatch them up for a blood sacrifice or something. Gawd, the ignorance! I wouldn't dream of letting those types know what I've got stored in my basement.

But while my (mostly LDS) neighbors no doubt think I'm nuts on the religion angle, when it comes to prepping we're all singin' the same tune. We swap tools, veggies, and barter all kinds of other stuff (king sized quilt for a freezer full of beef? BTDT). Nobody locks a door and we all watch out for one another. The thing is, in a predominently Mormon community, everybody expects that you've got at least a year's worth of food storage and thousands of rounds of ammo, it's the norm here. And to GreyWolf's point - it has crossed my mind that in a true, balls-to-the-wall SHTF scenario, how long it would take the hordes to realize their best bet to score all of the above would be a traditional Mormon community? Things that make you go hmmmmm ...

[Sister Wolf]

Ain't it hilarious, the reactions you can get? I've actually had people back up a step when I tell them I'm a pagan, like I'm gonna snatch them up for a blood sacrifice or something. Gawd, the ignorance! I wouldn't dream of letting those types know what I've got stored in my basement.

But while my (mostly LDS) neighbors no doubt think I'm nuts on the religion angle, when it comes to prepping we're all singin' the same tune. We swap tools, veggies, and barter all kinds of other stuff (king sized quilt for a freezer full of beef? BTDT). Nobody locks a door and we all watch out for one another. The thing is, in a predominently Mormon community, everybody expects that you've got at least a year's worth of food storage and thousands of rounds of ammo, it's the norm here. And to GreyWolf's point - it has crossed my mind that in a true, balls-to-the-wall SHTF scenario, how long it would take the hordes to realize their best bet to score all of the above would be a traditional Mormon community? Things that make you go hmmmmm ...

They might THINK you're nuts on the religion angle, but it's actually one of their articles of faith (tenets of religion) that they are supposed to respect every religion out there.  I think it's the 13th article of faith... *searching*  No, it's the 11th... goes like:  "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

[Morning Sunshine]

it has crossed my mind that in a true, balls-to-the-wall SHTF scenario, how long it would take the hordes to realize their best bet to score all of the above would be a traditional Mormon community? Things that make you go hmmmmm ...

There was a thread about that a while back.  it brought up some interesting points http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=3973.0

[mamabear]

I don't specifically hide the fact, but don't start a conversation telling people. I will talk about gardening, or my plans or seeds that I use ( I bought heirloom seeds from the Ark Institute) with my neighbors and family. I don't advertise that I have stored water, although should someone see it, I would just explain that we have it for things like frozen water pipes or the like. Most of the people that I am in contact with are of the same mindset, including the folks I worked with at my last job. Since I have moved, the couples that we have become friends with are of the same mindset. I didn't seek them out based on that, it just happened that way. That leads me to believe there are more people prepping for what ever reason they choose to call it, SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, or just personal or local emergencies. My neighbors are all open to it, and we talk openly.

[LJH]

Morning Sunshine, thanks for that link. I haven't been around long enough to have seen it the first time and it was an interesting read.

[bj]

Well, I purchased 2 gun safes a few days before Christmas at Dick's Sports. The clerk said that they will make nice presents for someone special.  I laughed and agreed with her and the manager that assisted in putting them in my truck.  There are "Christmas presents" for myself.  I find if I buy some items this time of year, most believe it is some sort of gift.  I also have found that sometime a store requires a zip code or other information.  I just give them the work place address or zip.  I have also found that MagicJack provides a lot of OPSEC for telephone use.  Called my sister at the kitchen table yesterday at her home and she was confused how I could call from my computer 3 states away.   

[Teancum]

I will first say that I'm a little confused about the Magic Jack being more secure, if you are talking about the call itself being secure.  A person, no matter what type of phone they use, can have their names not show up on caller ID.  Phone calls over the internet are less secure than phone calls over a landline.  Sure, landlines can be tapped, but generally speaking, you need to climb a pole for that.  As for Magic Jack, or any standard internet phone calls, they're are broadcasted over the internet.  Anyone with computer skills can listen in to those calls.

As for OPSEC altogether, I generally do not mention my prepper ways to people, even though my...subculture(?) is generally prepardness oriented.  For instance, my parents know I'm somewhat of a prepper, but my best friend does not.  I am, oddly enough, a fan of finding like minded individuals in your area, as well as educating as many good people in your area as possible.  I my mind, one must not only focus on one's self and family when TSHTF, but also the community.  Helps keep order, and it helps keep the predators at bay.  It can be hard to strike a balance.

[TwoBluesMama]

So how important is it that I keep tight control over OPSEC?  I'm sure I have at least one friend at work who has a pretty good idea of the degree of preps we have in place.  No one I work with knows exactly where I live, because I have a long commute, but as time goes by, they are probably going to get the idea that we are at least a homestead.

What are your thoughts?

Great topic Kate - thanks for posting it.

I've become very vocal over the past few years in our community (have taught a few canning classes at my home) and with our friends and at our church although I don't give out specifics about how much food storage we have.  The result:  people are now asking my DH and I for advice on how to prep. Someone we know and love came up to us a few weeks ago with their concerns about the economy and food prices and we are guiding them through the process of prepping.  I will be teaching the wife to can chicken on Friday - something I never would have guessed would happen. 

I think over the past 50 years we have lost a way of life that was common - gardening, cooking from scratch, canning, re-using and making do, fixing things instead of throwing it away, etc. - and people are discovering these skills again and finding enjoyment in doing for themselves. Anything you can do to encourage this is wonderful.

I think you are doing the right thing and hope you continue to share your lifestyle with others. Blessings! TBM

[Nicodemus]

I used to be somewhat vocal, or at the least above board, about my preps when I lived in the Washington D.C. area of Northern VA. I had freely lent out batteries, candles, food and even the use of my camping stove during a few winter storm emergencies and times when there were power outages due to lightning storms. Word travelled around the neighborhood that I was the go-to guy for a lot of emergency situations. I didn't see it as much of a problem until shortly after 9/11/01 when people beyond the neighborhood, people I didn't know, started asking questions. I felt more like I was being sized-up than anything else. I admit that I became quite paranoid.

Now I'll talk about prepping with friends and family, but I take a slower course with neighbors. All things considered, it's better if a community is prepared as a whole, but I'm not sure that I'm ready to post fliers and hold meetings yet.

[LvsChant]

That is very interesting, Nic. I would be a bit leery about strangers coming to me without introductions, too. I'm curious, though... what was their explanation about coming to you and asking things? Did they tell you who had suggested your name?
Or where they found out about you?

[PAGUY]

Well ladies I have to chime in here and say a thing or two since I have been around the block a few times with similar issues.  OPSEC or operational security can be defined in many different ways by many different people.  It is up to you as to your definition and how rigid you want to be in regards to OPSEC.  Each person and group (family, social, etc) have an idea of where they want to be with information or operational security.  As a general rule I think that all of us want to be able to provide for our family, friends and neighbors if things go wrong but, at the same time we do not want to have anyone take things away from us or harm us in any way.  Being open about general activities is a great thing even if it is just a posting on FACEBOOK that you have your peppers in the ground or you have a great watermelon patch this year. This allows you to be social (since people are social) and allows others to learn from you and you from them.  Saying on the same website that the combination to your root cellar,that has three years of food and water and a small arsenal in it, is 35-45-99-18-12 would not be a good idea.  The same goes for talking about your general interest or backgrounds. It would be fine to say on FACEBOOK "had an awesome camping trip with the family and even tried out my new 12GA".  I would not put on there "had trouble making my debris shelter during the mock bug out and have found out that my new 12GA with a 12 inch barrel is going to blow apart anyone that attacks my BOL".  If I was talking to friends that have the same mindset this might be different.  Be general just not to specific.   

[Nicodemus]

That is very interesting, Nic. I would be a bit leery about strangers coming to me without introductions, too. I'm curious, though... what was their explanation about coming to you and asking things? Did they tell you who had suggested your name?
Or where they found out about you?

Below is an excerpt from my first post in the Intro Thread here on the TSP forums. It's a bit long, but it outlines why I changed my habits a bit. It's a rather long post, but explains more clearly why I changed my habits.

"Until recently I lived in the Northern VA/D.C. area and prior to that Boston, MA. Anytime there had been minor bumps in daily life such as power outages, hurricanes, heavy snows or ice storms I'd always had enough for myself and to help the neighbors through. I lent out batteries for flashlights and radios, candles for light, food, tools, the use of my camp stove or anything else that would help out in those emergencies. Most everyone paid me back and while I was happy to do this I didn't immediately realize it put me in the position of the man everyone went to when they weren't prepared.

The idea that this position might become something of a problem didn't really hit home until 9.11.01. At the time I lived far enough from the Pentagon that there really wasn't much of a problem other than heavier than normal pre-five 'o clock traffic out of the city. Local stores remained open and there wasn't a lot of panic buying. Over the next few weeks however, there were a series of events that put me on edge. It all seemed fine at first, a few neighbors I knew dropped by and asked me about storing foods and where they could go locally to get a few essential supplies and equipment. I was more than happy to to share the information. Then other neighbors, and I use the term loosely, some that I didn't know and hadn't ever seen started dropping by with questions. I was kind and answered what I could all the while thinking, "Don't you people know how to use the internet?"

The question, I must admit, fueled a bit of paranoia in me. At worst I thought that perhaps I was being scoped out, at best I knew that word had really gotten out that I had supplies. As bad as that had been two more incidents really put my paranoia into overdrive. The first was a "surprise inspection" by the landlord and maintenance crew. We weren't due for a scheduled inspection until February and it was early November if I recall correctly. I might not have thought much of it, but there was a lot of focus in the areas where I kept my storage items and way too many questions about them. I admit again that it could have been my paranoia that was making a perfectly innocent situation out to be something more than it actually was, but I knew these guys had the keys to my place and that wasn't helping. The second was a visit from the local Police. Two officers showed up at my door and asked if they could come in and ask me a few questions. The questions started around local gang activity, which there had been, and flowed until mention was made that they knew I worked from home. They asked that I keep an eye out and asked that I call if I saw any suspicious activity. Before the Police Offices left they made an inquiry about any weapons I might have for personal protection. I felt a cold chill run down my spine and I actually got goose bumps. This could have been an innocent visit about public safety, but my paranoia was already at peak.

I started to change my ideas about what I would do if there was an emergency of such scale that I might become a target. While I'd always thought I would hunker down and "Bug In" if there were any problems suddenly the idea of "Bugging Out" became more of a game plan. I started taking wilderness survival, primitive skill and bushcraft courses, not with the thought that I would somehow disappear into the wilderness and live off the land, but with the thought that if things got bad and I had to bug out I could make a go at getting to southwest VA or northeast TN where I have loads of family. I'd take my car and heavy supplies as far as it could get me and if needs be go the rest of the distance on foot."

A lot of people dropped by, some I knew and some mentioned people that I knew who had mentioned me, but there were others whom had contacted me in that time that I neither knew nor knew the name of the people who had mentioned me. All of these people asked about my preparations. It all could have been very innocent, but it was very eerie whether I was reading the situation correctly or not.

[OKGranny]

Well Nic, I don't know either but that would have kicked my paranoia into over drive for sure. I'm still glad I've always preferred to keep it on the QT except with family and like minded people. I don't mind talking canning and gardening and chickens and such with anyone but that's about as far as I ever see myself going.

[soupbone]

I have to agree with PAGuy on this one - there is stuff you can talk about and stuff you can't (or shouldn't).
It's ok to talk about gardening and canning, for example, but don't mention how much you have stored or where. Likewise, referring to your vacation / retirement home as a bug out location makes some people want to go hmmmm...... Firearms are another hot button topic. I guess it's ok to admit to having an old .38 or a shotgun, but not that you have three black rifles and 10k rounds of ammo locked away. To be honest, I am even leary of posting details on forums like this. There is no real way of keeping this information within our community, given this is a public forum.

Back when I was in the AF, we had a two tier formal OPSEC system. The first was the standard classification system (top secret, secret, confidential, etc.) The second part was "need to know". No matter what your clearance level was, if you didn't need to know that particular info, you weren't going to get it.

IMHO, the same applies here - if you don't need to know what I have, or what my preps are, you aren't going to. Not that I'm going to get nasty about it (I'm fairly good at turning things aside), but......

soup

[JeanetteW]

This is an interesting question. To be honest, I don't think in terms of "OPSEC" (sic) - I kind of get the impression that's a male-term that has no real meaning to me.

I run a tight ship: the homestead is well supplied and reasonably self-sufficient. We moved here 12 years ago and chose this place because it is reasonably secure and still close enough to town to make things easy.

We always help friends and family who are interested in setting up a pantry and in getting into home food production. If they say "Goodness! We'll just come to your place if things get bad, I just say "Thanks, we can always use the meat." Somehow that seems to shut them down - even more so if they have ever seen us slaughter animals ;>

So, "OPSEC" (sic)  is a bit of a foreign term to me - its kind of meaningless to be sure - but "FRIEND-SEC" is much more familiar. It's easy to help friends learn how to be more secure, and I think we provide a good example in this regard. We always do whatever we can to help friends and family learn how to be more secure in themselves and more productive for their families.

We have found that the greater the extent to which we can help those around us save money and make their own homes more self-sufficient, the more we make things more secure for ourselves and our community.

There are a lot of sound in-roads here: Living frugally leads to stockpiling necessities - buy as muc as you can when prices are low. Couponing also encourages this. Living well is not only the best revenge, it is also the best inspiration we can provide for our families and our communities.

Its a lot easier to "inspire" than it is to "conspire" - there's no reason to sweat "OPSEC" (sic) if you are living well and inspiring others. If you are concerned about "OPSEC" (sic) you might want to reconsider what kind of inspiration you are providing to those you love and to your community at large.

Love, live, and prosper!
 --
 J

[LvsChant]

Jeanette! glad to see you back here...

[soupbone]

Uh, <blush> Jeanette, thanks for the reality check.

Sometimes we can get carried away tossing out jargon and stuff. As I see it, there is stuff to share with friends, and stuff best kept to yourself. Avoid jargon and contriversial topics - like guns and TEOTWAWKI- like the plague; just be as helpful and friendly to folks as you can. When you said, "We have found that the greater the extent to which we can help those around us save money and make their own homes more self-sufficient, the more we make things more secure for ourselves and our community.", you hit the nail on the head, and I'm sure you (we) can do a lot of good playing it low keyed, as quiet, reassuring sources of information.

Kind of like a local version of TW. 

soup

[OldManSchmidt]

I don't give away the farm, so to speak, even here.  Not that I don't trust the members of this board, but the board isn't only viewable to members is it?

We, as Preppers, do have one very real problem that has no real solution though.  We are by nature and effort, a confident lot.  No matter how hard we try, we give off certain unconscious signals that we are different; that we are prepared.  It is in how we carry ourselves, how we look at things, our relative calm in the face of trouble, our tone of voice and our obvious knowledge in a great many areas of study.

I have been pegged, more or less accurately, on a few occasions by both friend and stranger.  This is without ever bringing up my preps or preparedness lifestyle.

Just something to be aware of.

[DaiseyMae]

The last thing anyone needs is a group of hungry desperate people in a vehicle looking for a better place to live when the bad times hit.
This is the real world, and people will do anything and everything to survive during hard times. The nastier people are during good times, imagine how nasty they will become during bad times.

You got that right GW.
We live where there are lots of locals who have sticky fingers, but they are miles away from us. Still, when times get bad, they will search for food anywhere they can find it. Luckily, I am a good shot. 
I don't tell anyone we prep. There are a few good people we might talk to, but we are very picky who we might share info with. I can count on one hand. Sad...but in this day and time you DO have to be careful what you say and who you say it to. People do have the tendency to remember things when they really need to. Some may think back to some people who have told them they prep. Making you a good prospect if you know what I mean, so be careful in what you do tell people.

[Prepper7]

Hope no one minds the thread necro...

I think it's very important. As others have said, when things get tough, people will remember what they've heard and seen.

I try not to be paranoid, but I try to 1. help spread the message and 2. be discreet. I live in Los Angeles (almost says it all  ) and I've been thinking about bugging-in in our apartment building. Most people in the building will, at least, say hello in the halls or laundry room but there is a clique (they don't behave negatively or anything, they just seem to be very close and hang together); Of the 15 1-bedroom units in our building 75% are occupied by this connected group and there are between 6 and 9 people in each apartment they occupy.

All that is a lead-in to my recent attempt to share the message and get people here to prep. I'm afraid of tipping my hand so when I ran into the friendliest family (we always exchange a few sentences upon meeting) I said, "Hey, did you see what happened to Japan!? Wow, that's scary, huh? I heard that many people didn't have any earthquake supplies. Makes sense to have a least some extra water and food. Don't you think? Yeah, I think getting some food and water before our next earthquake would be good..."

I felt bad for being suspicious/fearful, but I'm truly concerned --"loose lips" and all that.