Armory, Self Defense, And EDC > Firearm Self Defense

Morning Event Showed Need for Dual Non-lethal/CC carry

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joeinwv:
Sounds like these guys were within a car length of you - let's say 15'. What if you spray them and they charge you - how fast can you transition to your gun? Ever see the 20' knife vs gun demo - guy with the gun doesn't usually win.

Lot of grey areas - be careful out there.

mxitman:
Yea close call, hard to say what they intended!... had the same thing happen to me a few years back after a Seahawk sunday night game...we park about 2-3 miles from the stadium in a free parking area. When I was almost to my truck a guy popped out from the bushes in front of the car next to me, and then this other guy came from my opposite/blind side... I CC'd even though you are not supposed to bring anything into the stadium... I never had to pull it, just rested my hand on it and yelled for both of them to back off or else they were going to have a bad night... not a fun situation at all

The Professor:
Well, here's my take on this, worth exactly what you paid for it.

I don't see a need for pepper spray as part of your daily carry.  These are nitpicky  points, but I'm going to make them, anyway.

1.  In the situation you detailed, your CCW did exactly what you wanted it to.  You scared off both attackers.

2.  Having choices means you have to MAKE choices in a situation where the more you think the less you do.  More choices means more OODA loops.

3.  Pepper spray is great as long as, as others have pointed out, the recipient isn't: 1. upwind; 2. too close; 3. too far away; 4. immune (I can take a hit of pepper spray and still remain functional, but I eat a LOT of very hot, stupid-spicy foods.  Pepper spray burns, but it doesn't incapacitate me.)

4.  If you do have a can of pepper spray on you and you are forced to use deadly force, you had better have used the pepper spray before your firearm.  Not saying this is right, but a can of spray on your body will have an a**hole prosecutor  (or a civil lawyer suing you for everything you own) making you out to be a cop wannabe or an incompetent killer-in-waiting (he'll compare you to the police despite the fact you aren't a trained cop).  You will hear the words "Force Continuum" as if you are a trained police officer and a prosecutor or aggressive civil attorney will try to have you held to the same standards.  After all, it was YOU who chose a non-lethal device to protect yourself, yet you CHOSE to kill your attacker.  Was it just the bloodlust?  Was it incompetence?

5.  If you DO use Pepper Spray and the attacker continues attacking, you're going to have a VERY hard time convincing anyone that he continued aggressing you, unless you have lots of witnesses who are willing to give statements and show up in court (ever notice how witnesses "don't want to get involved?")

6.  If you do use pepper spray and the attacker stops, you stand a good chance of being the victim of false reporting.  I saw this one, myself.  A friend of mine left a bar one night and headed to his car.  He had a small can of OC/CN/Dye Marker spray with him and he was approached by three guys who tried to box him into the space between his car and the one parked next to him.  They told him to give him their money.  One of the guys had a sock with rocks or something heavy in it, and another had his hand in his jacket pocket like he had a gun.  When he told them he had no money, the guy with the sock hit his car, denting the hood.  He pulls his pepperspray and hits the two at the front of the car, swings his arm back around with his thumb still depressing the trigger, spraying the side of his car and hits the guy at the rear.  They all fall screaming down. He jumps in his car and drives away.  He gets all the way home and when he arrives, there are two police cruisers waiting for him.  Long story shorter: A buddy of the three jackwagons called the cops claiming my friend was the aggressor, that he came out and was looking for a fight.  He claimed his friends were sitting in front of his car, just chilling and he went off on them, spraying them with pepper spray and then punching and kicking them. 

Since my friend didn't call the cops, he was on the defensive, was cuffed and booked on Assault and Battery.  He spent one night in jail and only ended up getting off because a good police detective was able to get video from an ATM camera right across the street that showed the three guys approaching others and caught part of the incident.  They dug deeper, found the complainants had a rather long history of petty theft and thuggery and the prosecutor dropped the charges.

So, as another poster said: Call the cops and report it.

Since it's "less-lethal," you may be tempted to use it with less of a qualifier, and it may get you in trouble.

I've CCW'd for over 25 years and have never carried Tear Gas or Pepper Spray, especially after going through Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute and hearing all the horror stories of the aftermaths of cases like these.

You did right in the above case.  You had a way to defend yourself.  Keep the basic tenet of not drawing your weapon until you feel your life is in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, and you'll be in the right.

But again, that's just my opinion.

The Professor
   

Beetlebum:

--- Quote from: The Professor on August 18, 2014, 11:08:01 PM ---Well, here's my take on this, worth exactly what you paid for it.

I don't see a need for pepper spray as part of your daily carry.  These are nitpicky  points, but I'm going to make them, anyway.

1.  In the situation you detailed, your CCW did exactly what you wanted it to.  You scared off both attackers.

2.  Having choices means you have to MAKE choices in a situation where the more you think the less you do.  More choices means more OODA loops.

3.  Pepper spray is great as long as, as others have pointed out, the recipient isn't: 1. upwind; 2. too close; 3. too far away; 4. immune (I can take a hit of pepper spray and still remain functional, but I eat a LOT of very hot, stupid-spicy foods.  Pepper spray burns, but it doesn't incapacitate me.)

4.  If you do have a can of pepper spray on you and you are forced to use deadly force, you had better have used the pepper spray before your firearm.  Not saying this is right, but a can of spray on your body will have an a**hole prosecutor  (or a civil lawyer suing you for everything you own) making you out to be a cop wannabe or an incompetent killer-in-waiting (he'll compare you to the police despite the fact you aren't a trained cop).  You will hear the words "Force Continuum" as if you are a trained police officer and a prosecutor or aggressive civil attorney will try to have you held to the same standards.  After all, it was YOU who chose a non-lethal device to protect yourself, yet you CHOSE to kill your attacker.  Was it just the bloodlust?  Was it incompetence?

5.  If you DO use Pepper Spray and the attacker continues attacking, you're going to have a VERY hard time convincing anyone that he continued aggressing you, unless you have lots of witnesses who are willing to give statements and show up in court (ever notice how witnesses "don't want to get involved?")

6.  If you do use pepper spray and the attacker stops, you stand a good chance of being the victim of false reporting.  I saw this one, myself.  A friend of mine left a bar one night and headed to his car.  He had a small can of OC/CN/Dye Marker spray with him and he was approached by three guys who tried to box him into the space between his car and the one parked next to him.  They told him to give him their money.  One of the guys had a sock with rocks or something heavy in it, and another had his hand in his jacket pocket like he had a gun.  When he told them he had no money, the guy with the sock hit his car, denting the hood.  He pulls his pepperspray and hits the two at the front of the car, swings his arm back around with his thumb still depressing the trigger, spraying the side of his car and hits the guy at the rear.  They all fall screaming down. He jumps in his car and drives away.  He gets all the way home and when he arrives, there are two police cruisers waiting for him.  Long story shorter: A buddy of the three jackwagons called the cops claiming my friend was the aggressor, that he came out and was looking for a fight.  He claimed his friends were sitting in front of his car, just chilling and he went off on them, spraying them with pepper spray and then punching and kicking them. 

Since my friend didn't call the cops, he was on the defensive, was cuffed and booked on Assault and Battery.  He spent one night in jail and only ended up getting off because a good police detective was able to get video from an ATM camera right across the street that showed the three guys approaching others and caught part of the incident.  They dug deeper, found the complainants had a rather long history of petty theft and thuggery and the prosecutor dropped the charges.

So, as another poster said: Call the cops and report it.

Since it's "less-lethal," you may be tempted to use it with less of a qualifier, and it may get you in trouble.

I've CCW'd for over 25 years and have never carried Tear Gas or Pepper Spray, especially after going through Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute and hearing all the horror stories of the aftermaths of cases like these.

You did right in the above case.  You had a way to defend yourself.  Keep the basic tenet of not drawing your weapon until you feel your life is in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, and you'll be in the right.

But again, that's just my opinion.

The Professor
   

--- End quote ---

Really good analysis. I normally hear the opposite opinion and don't think I've ever heard it presented this way. You said you've carried for 25 years, have you ever had to use it, either in a case similar to this or beyond?

mnotlyon:

--- Quote from: The Professor on August 18, 2014, 11:08:01 PM ---Well, here's my take on this, worth exactly what you paid for it.

I don't see a need for pepper spray as part of your daily carry.  These are nitpicky  points, but I'm going to make them, anyway.

1.  In the situation you detailed, your CCW did exactly what you wanted it to.  You scared off both attackers.

2.  Having choices means you have to MAKE choices in a situation where the more you think the less you do.  More choices means more OODA loops.

3.  Pepper spray is great as long as, as others have pointed out, the recipient isn't: 1. upwind; 2. too close; 3. too far away; 4. immune (I can take a hit of pepper spray and still remain functional, but I eat a LOT of very hot, stupid-spicy foods.  Pepper spray burns, but it doesn't incapacitate me.)

4.  If you do have a can of pepper spray on you and you are forced to use deadly force, you had better have used the pepper spray before your firearm.  Not saying this is right, but a can of spray on your body will have an a**hole prosecutor  (or a civil lawyer suing you for everything you own) making you out to be a cop wannabe or an incompetent killer-in-waiting (he'll compare you to the police despite the fact you aren't a trained cop).  You will hear the words "Force Continuum" as if you are a trained police officer and a prosecutor or aggressive civil attorney will try to have you held to the same standards.  After all, it was YOU who chose a non-lethal device to protect yourself, yet you CHOSE to kill your attacker.  Was it just the bloodlust?  Was it incompetence?

5.  If you DO use Pepper Spray and the attacker continues attacking, you're going to have a VERY hard time convincing anyone that he continued aggressing you, unless you have lots of witnesses who are willing to give statements and show up in court (ever notice how witnesses "don't want to get involved?")

6.  If you do use pepper spray and the attacker stops, you stand a good chance of being the victim of false reporting.  I saw this one, myself.  A friend of mine left a bar one night and headed to his car.  He had a small can of OC/CN/Dye Marker spray with him and he was approached by three guys who tried to box him into the space between his car and the one parked next to him.  They told him to give him their money.  One of the guys had a sock with rocks or something heavy in it, and another had his hand in his jacket pocket like he had a gun.  When he told them he had no money, the guy with the sock hit his car, denting the hood.  He pulls his pepperspray and hits the two at the front of the car, swings his arm back around with his thumb still depressing the trigger, spraying the side of his car and hits the guy at the rear.  They all fall screaming down. He jumps in his car and drives away.  He gets all the way home and when he arrives, there are two police cruisers waiting for him.  Long story shorter: A buddy of the three jackwagons called the cops claiming my friend was the aggressor, that he came out and was looking for a fight.  He claimed his friends were sitting in front of his car, just chilling and he went off on them, spraying them with pepper spray and then punching and kicking them. 

Since my friend didn't call the cops, he was on the defensive, was cuffed and booked on Assault and Battery.  He spent one night in jail and only ended up getting off because a good police detective was able to get video from an ATM camera right across the street that showed the three guys approaching others and caught part of the incident.  They dug deeper, found the complainants had a rather long history of petty theft and thuggery and the prosecutor dropped the charges.

So, as another poster said: Call the cops and report it.

Since it's "less-lethal," you may be tempted to use it with less of a qualifier, and it may get you in trouble.

I've CCW'd for over 25 years and have never carried Tear Gas or Pepper Spray, especially after going through Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute and hearing all the horror stories of the aftermaths of cases like these.

You did right in the above case.  You had a way to defend yourself.  Keep the basic tenet of not drawing your weapon until you feel your life is in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, and you'll be in the right.

But again, that's just my opinion.

The Professor
   

--- End quote ---

This is pretty much what the lawyer that taught my CCW class told us.
Having "less-than-lethal" available can be a blessing or a curse.

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