Author Topic: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.  (Read 10426 times)

Offline DeltaOscarCharlie

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Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« on: August 30, 2009, 12:30:12 AM »
Wanted to share with you an interesting and useful product I have come across.

Having carried and used striking devices, pepper spray, Tasers, and firearms as part of my job for 32 years (I am retired now) I am a firm believer in OPTIONS.  As most have heard the story already of Jack having some pepper spray with him one time along with his firearm - the fact of which allowed him NOT to shoot a neighbors dog when it threatened him.  Having options is important.  Just as important as having multiple options available is having them ready for instant use.  It is no good having pepper spray, a gun, or a cell phone if you cannot access these options in a timely manner.  If that is the case then all those options are as unavailable to you as if the did not exist.

I discovered Spitfire Pepper Spray when checking out one day from my local Academy Sport + Outdoors.  Located on the very front wall, in front of the cash registers where you would only see it mostly only AFTER you checked out, it is hanging with the other mace-type products along with all the headphones and mp3 accessory gear.  Now I am sure they have a reason for putting it there so I shall leave my opinions on that out.

Regardless, what caught my eye was the fact that the dispenser looked like none I had ever seen before.  Here it is:



As I said, what immediately struck me was the design.  It didn't really look like a pepper spray dispenser.  it looked more like an LED flashlight.  I saw in this design the aspects of portability, availability, and stealth. Intrigued I bought two.  One for me and one for my wife. 

Once home I finally got the units out of those (USE BLOW TORCH TO OPEN) packages.  Again I was struck by another of Spitfires design advantages.  Besides looking unusual, the thing fit in my hand like it was made for it.  Now, had you told me that I ever would use the words 'comfortable' and 'pleasant to hold' to describe a pepper spray delivery device I would have been ROFLMAO.  Well, I was not laughing.  It really was, and is, very comfortable to hold.  I thought the triggering method was way cool and put it on my keyring and basically forgot about it.

Having put it on my keyring I eventually noticed that I had begun carrying my keys around using the SPITFIRE as a handle for the keyring.  (Up till then I normally always carried my keys by slipping one of the rings over one of my fingers and let them dangle.) Didn't do it on purpose and I never really thought about it.  I just noticed I had dropped into this new way of carrying my keys without thinking.  Now I don't care who you are - that is cool when you think about it.  I had changed from a decades long habit of carrying my keys one way over to a 'better' method with a better preparedness option without consciously making the decision to do so --- that is remarkable.

I am including some of the company patter below.  May I suggest that if you are interested in a less than lethal alternative, one that makes more sense to me than any other I have run across for regular person urban preparedness  , check out the SPITFIRE alternative.  At $12.99 each from Academy Sports they are inexpensive enough to have several.  I have sense added one to each glove compartment of our vehicles and each of our BOB's have one inside also.  If you have any questions I received same day response from the Company and each has been very helpful.  Spitfire's main office in AUSTIN, Texas has inert gas practice cartridges available for order as well as the regular cartridges for when you need to replace or refill the dispenser.

Cheers,
DOC



How is Spitfire different from ordinary pepper sprays?

This is the heart of the matter.

Spitfire’s horizontal point & shoot chemical dispenser is the best delivery system on the market. We have recently been awarded 4 patents from the United States Patent and Trademark Office for the unique technological advances in our chemical dispenser.

Compared to all competing pepper sprays on the market, Spitfire is:

    * The Quickest. Slide Spitfire’s firing button forward to take it off “safety” - then press that same button down firmly to spray. The fluid motion is lightning fast.
       
    * The Safest to Carry. Only Spitfire has a firing button connected to a tempered copper-bryllium spring that returns to Safe automatically from any position. Spitfire is child resistant for pre-schoolers. Spitfire is safe in your pocket. It will not go off unless you want it to. 
       
    * The Most Accurate. Pepper spray works best when you hit the attacker’s eyes. Only a patented Spitfire® point & shoot dispenser is ergonomically engineered to instinctively hit an attacker’s eyes without consciously aiming.  Proceed to 'Videos' page.
       
      Your natural eye-hand coordination lets you point your finger with instinctive accuracy. Ergonomic adaptation of the chemical dispenser to the physiology of your hand and wrist is necessary to achieve this instinctive accuracy with the pepper spray. The Spitfire canister is engineered to rest horizontally in your hand (as you hold a flashlight), so you can point at the attacker’s eyes and your instinctive point of aim corresponds to the point of impact. With your first shot, you are able to hit an attacker’s eyes without consciously aiming, day or night.

Spitfire has numerous other advantages:

    * Spitfire is Strong. Spitfire’s pepper spray contains the best quality OC available confirmed by laboratory HPLC testing to have a 2 million SHU rating. Spitfire® blasts 8 individual half-second shots, or one continuous shot, of police-strength pepper spray out to 8 feet in a cone pattern.
       
    * Avoid Being Disarmed. Surprise is a formidable advantage in combat. Only Spitfire is ergonomically designed to shoot from the hip into the attacker’s eyes so you can surprise him and avoid being disarmed. Raise your empty hand to distract him while you shoot your Spitfire with the other hand from the hip. 
       
    * Grabbed from behind. A woman alone is often grabbed from behind, because her attacker wants to stop her from screaming by clamping his hand over her mouth. Only the Spitfire® dispenser is designed to easily hit an attacker's eyes from behind you. 
       
    * Snap- free© Key Ring. Only a Spitfire pulls free from your key ring for use in a road rage situation without you needing to turn off your car, and it snaps back together again for reuse. This patented feature is the quickest on the market. 
       
    * Refills. Spitfire is not a throwaway dispenser like ordinary pepper sprays. Pepper canister refills are available where you buy Spitfire, so we are more economical over the long run. Pepper canisters work best for twenty-four months. Check the expiration date printed on the pepper canister..
       
    * Float Test. You can easily check at anytime whether your Spitfire is loaded by simply dropping the pepper canister into water at room temperature:

          If it floats and breaks the surface, refill it.
          If not, it’s good to go.

    * Ergonomic Design. The sleek featherweight design of Spitfire fits on your key ring so it is always with you. Spitfire is easily concealed in your hand and quickly orients by touch for firing.
       
    * Environmentally Friendly. Spitfire’s formula does not affect the ozone layer and it is non-flammable.
       
    * Premium Quality Spitfire dispensers are ultrasonically welded for maximum strength, not clipped together like ordinary pepper sprays. Spitfire is robust, reliable, waterproof, and we use the best quality OC.

One major secret of successful products is that they deliver an unexpected benefit to the customer. Spitfire does just that! Carrying a Spitfire, the customer enjoys relief from stress, night after night.


http://www.spitfire.us

Offline DeltaOscarCharlie

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2009, 01:37:07 AM »
And yes!  I can't use proper spellings at times.  So shoot me.   :P

tywebb

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2009, 07:48:04 PM »
DOC- sold! I am going to try these out- Thanks.

Goatdog62

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2009, 08:27:49 PM »
I am well versed on OC, have used it over a hundred times and teach it to this day.

I must say...I REALLY LIKE THIS.

It seems to be practical and, because it is small, you will be more inclined to carry it.

I am ordering a few to test.

Thanks for posting. Goatdogs +1 of the day man.

James Yeager

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2009, 09:27:34 PM »
They are the best of the "keychain" models.

Offline DeltaOscarCharlie

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2009, 09:43:40 PM »
They are the best of the "key chain" models.

Absolutely, they are!  They are perfect for what they are designed to do - quickly deployable personal defense.

If any of you folks get these and like them think about dropping a line to SPITFIRE and tell them WHERE you heard about them (on The Survival Podcast Forum - not from me).  

If they get enough feedback maybe they will think about becoming a sponsor of TSP.  

If so - one more step toward TSP becoming a self sufficient company and allowing Jack to change his day job!  ;)

Offline dflem62

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2009, 04:57:22 PM »
I'm a little curious on how the safety mechanisms on this dispenser work, perhaps DOC or anyone else who has experience with this could explain it, in general, whats there to keep me from spraying the inside of my pocket?  :)  Thanks!

James Yeager

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2009, 06:48:39 PM »
Pepper Spray
By: James Yeager

   People use the word "mace" as a generic term for any type or brand of aerosol chemical weapon. They use it much in the same way as saying Kleenex for any facial tissue. Shop wisely because not all personal defense sprays are created equally. Some people choose them because O.C. can be carried in some places that guns are not allowed. Others just want more options.

   The single biggest misconception about aerosol chemical weapons is the "percentage" of O.C. (Oleoresin Capsicum) like 5% or 10%. A person might be led to believe the 10% formula is better than a lower one like 5%. The higher percentages make it last LONGER because there is more pepper in that formula. They do not make it HOTTER and heat is what makes it effective.
 
   Let’s say brand “A” uses a very low grade of pepper and makes the formula 10%. Brand “F” uses the highest quality peppers available and makes the formula 2%. The only way to determine how good either of them might be is to check the label for Scoville Heat Units. Heat is what makes O.C. effective. Heat of O.C. is measured by S.H.U.s (Scoville Heat Units). In my opinion, you should consider nothing less than 1 million S.H.U.s, for self-protection or Law Enforcement work.

  Another misconception is that the O.C. spray will affect people of different ethnic backgrounds less because they eat so many peppers as part of their staple diet. This is absolutely not true.

   The three physical effects that you want your formula to cause are a burning sensation of the contaminated skin, respiratory distress, and an involuntary eye closure. The burning sensation is the least important tactically. The desired respiratory effect is to decrease the ability for the badguy to breathe enough to keep attacking you. The involuntary eye closure is the most important tactically. The O.C. dries the fluids in the eye on contact and forces the person to shut their eyes. If the potential felon can’t see you it will be more difficult to catch or kill you.

   Most Personal Defense Sprays are available in Fog, Cone (sometimes called Mist), Stream and Foam. Each of these spray patterns has its strong points. Fog is the most effective delivery system because it is the most readily inhaled. It causes the most cross contamination onto unintended areas and is the easiest to blow back into your own face. Cone has a “shotgun” type pattern and is my personal favorite for general use. It has a more wind resistant delivery but still atomizes the O.C. well for inhalation. Stream is not inhaled as readily but has the greatest distance and even less likelihood of blowback. Foam has an almost shaving cream type consistency. It is highly unlikely it will be blown back by wind and is the best choice for indoor use as it causes the least cross contamination. Foam, however, is the least effective because it is rarely inhaled.

Cans from 1.5 oz to 2 oz are typically the best because they have enough contents to spray multiple attackers or to spray as you make your escape. "Keychain" models are not recommended simply because they do not have a payload or ability to deliver at further than 3-5 feet (at best). The bigger the can the further it goes.

   Some manufacturers would have you believe their product is superior to any other defensive option. Nothing works 100% of the time. NOTHING. Not your shotgun, not your baton, not your brain. Do not fall into the trap of thinking your O.C. will handle anything that comes along. It will not. Beware of any company who says their spray is the greatest thing ever invented. I have seen demonstrations of people sprayed with pepper sprays and still attack. Goal oriented people. They are dangerous and you must remain vigilant.

  You must also have a back-up plan. Just like going to your back-up gun if your primary becomes damaged or taken. If your O.C. doesn’t work you need to be prepared to go to a higher level of force or be ready to run away. Always keep in mind your self defense tools are likely to give lackluster performance when it comes down to it.

   If you carry O.C. as a defensive option put some thought into it. Just like with your gun-holster-ammo combination. Police officers use the O.C. on their belt far more often than the gun beside it. Consider which spray pattern and formulation will best suit your needs. Also consider placing several cans in strategic locations like in the car, at the office, by the front door and in your vest pocket.

   Using O.C. isn’t as complicated as shooting but you do need to practice with it. Many companies sell inert training units that will work for practice but I suggest just using a live can. Practice like you would use it and think ahead and know which way the wind is blowing. If it blows back into your face have you really made yourself safer?
 
   While on the topic of accidentally (or otherwise) being sprayed there are some simple guidelines you can follow to speed recovery along. Water and lots of it will help immensely. If you have non-oil based soap available (like Dawn or J&J baby shampoo) you should use it to wash the excess spray out of your hair and off your face. Make sure to get it all so you don’t get recontaminated later when you shower. Never use salves or creams to ease the burning sensation. It will only trap the O.C. under the skin and cause blistering. Never remove another persons contact lenses, always let a medical professional take them out.

   If you ever are forced to spray someone you should move afterward. Two or three one half second bursts will do it. If the face is covered it will make it no hotter to spray more and it could actually wash some off. It should produce a reaction within three seconds of contact. If you do not get the desired effect go to your “plan B”.
 
   Chemical Weapons can be a good choice for people who choose not to have a gun. They can also help us bridge the gap between no force and lethal force. If chosen and used correctly they can be a great asset to anyone who is worried about their personal safety.
 
  Tactical Response offers the best chemical weapons course available anywhere and the only quality course open to non-police and military. We open a lot of new tactical applications for this tool and it is one of our most sought after classes. To host a class or for more information call 731-676-2041, check our website www.TacticalResponse.com, or send an e-mail to
info@TacticalResponse.com

Offline Nirgal

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 08:51:42 AM »
Okay, here's a question from across the pond.

You are probably aware that firearms cannot be carried in public and many hoops have to be jumped through in order to obtain a Fire-Arms Certificate.

It is equally impractical to wander around with an airgun, for almost similar reasons.

Now here's the thing, pepper-spray et. al. is in U.K. actually classed as a Fire-Arm and subject to similar restrictions and punishment.

Crazy? Yes, I know, I live here.

With that in mind what could you offer as a sensible solution? (emigration is for this purpose NOT sensible  ;) )

Offline donaldj

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 09:54:47 AM »
....With that in mind what could you offer as a sensible solution? (emigration is for this purpose NOT sensible  ;) )


Extensive martial arts training with a combat/defense oriented instructor, including a study in traditional martial arts weaponry.

The training will help you more than a spray would. The weapon training will give you the building blocks to utilize anything around you as a viable weapon.

They can never disarm your hands and feet, unless you live in true tyranny.

If you are in a defense situation, and grab a nearby bowling pin, pool cue, rock, water hose, whatever, they are probably not going to try that as lethal force since you were never "carrying" it on you. You were in fear for your life and grabbed the nearest tool in a panic.

Be aware of all the things around you and their weapon characteristics. Be aware of how all these apply to the weapon you're training with at the time.

Just my opinion, but hoping for "defense in a can" is unrealistic. Treating is as a weapon that you might get an advantage out of is realistic. Thinking it's a 100% effective fight stopper is not.

Offline DeltaOscarCharlie

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2009, 10:54:41 AM »
I'm a little curious on how the safety mechanisms on this dispenser works, perhaps DOC or anyone else who has experience with this could explain it, in general, what's there to keep me from spraying the inside of my pocket?  :)  Thanks!

That is one of the things I really like about this unit, and it works this way:

The button itself is SPRING LOADED.  The spring keeps the button constantly in the 'safe' rearmost position.  The button has to be pushed Forward to the 'stop' AND then pushed Down.  It doesn't end there:  when the button is initially pushed down you hit a point of resistance about 2/3 of the way along.  At that 'point of resistance' you have to Depress the button HARDER to actually discharge the device.  

It's the only one I have seen that operates this way.  Many of the others simply use the natural resistance to pushing of the actuator, sometimes coupled with a twist lock spray head, along with a carrier 'holster' flap for safety.  Both the twist lock safety and the holster do not readily lend themselves to instantaneous deployment.

With the spring holding the button in the normal rearmost 'safety' position you can push down until mechanical failure but it will NOT activate the unit.  In all probability the button would break (crush) first and, if it didn't, it would probably dent or crush the canister.  That much pressure would be highly unlikely without a hammer or a piano falling on you.  Let me know if this helped.  If not I will see about providing something better.

You get an idea from the video below:


http://www.spitfire.us/images/ChildResistantDesign.wmv

 

Offline DeltaOscarCharlie

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2009, 10:58:00 AM »
Carry a cane or this:
http://www.real-self-defense.com/umbrella.html

And I must say a society that prevents it's citizens from protecting themselves leaves a lot to be desired.

Good luck and may God protect you in all the empty places you must walk.


Okay, here's a question from across the pond. You are probably aware that firearms cannot be carried in public and many hoops have to be jumped through in order to obtain a Fire-Arms Certificate. It is equally impractical to wander around with an airgun, for almost similar reasons. Now here's the thing, pepper-spray et. al. is in U.K. actually classed as a Fire-Arm and subject to similar restrictions and punishment. Crazy? Yes, I know, I live here. With that in mind what could you offer as a sensible solution? (emigration is for this purpose NOT sensible  ;) )
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 11:04:15 AM by DeltaOscarCharlie »

Offline Doc K

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2009, 11:39:52 AM »
DOC,
Thanks for showing thsi product.  I think it could be a great addition.

James - fantastic post!  +1

Offline Steve W

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2009, 03:50:20 PM »
Okay, here's a question from across the pond.

You are probably aware that firearms cannot be carried in public and many hoops have to be jumped through in order to obtain a Fire-Arms Certificate.

It is equally impractical to wander around with an airgun, for almost similar reasons.

Now here's the thing, pepper-spray et. al. is in U.K. actually classed as a Fire-Arm and subject to similar restrictions and punishment.

Crazy? Yes, I know, I live here.

With that in mind what could you offer as a sensible solution? (emigration is for this purpose NOT sensible  ;) )

Having lived in wonderful UK locations like Moss Side & Whalley Range, I got my taste of the paradox of the UK aversion to proactive selfdefense.

Had several incidents and quickly learned to deal with them with decisive return violence. 

Example, jumped on a Night Service bus (guard had gone upstairs briefly).  Let the attacker carry by, using his momentum, and then used full body weight to throttle him.

The prat wet himself, physically, before the Night Service guard took him away from me and in disgust launched him off at the next stop.


Another wee hours adventure was being jumped by glue sniffers under the Precinct on Oxford Road about 3 am.  One of the lads had a scalpel.  I had taken to carrying a very stout Samsonite Briefcase, knowing that you cannot swing the handle off one.  Little knife boy got it first, as hard as I could, and the second punk got kneed & stomped.

What I am I on about?  The English Thug expects a docile, almost subservient victim. 

The moment I or my property was threatened I did something they never expected of "A Suit" - I hit them first and with what to them was a level of force shocking.

It wasn't about taking trophies, or being "Mr Alpha," but in deciding the outcome by refusing to be the victim.

It was my error that even for brief moment I had lost control - I had failed to see or predict the attempts.

But through taking a very different role than the thugs expected, I regained situational superiority.

My English friends were at first horrified when they guessed I had "done" the glue sniffers aka "Thuglings," so if you must expect a similar reaction of a proactive retaliation becomes part of your selfdefense.

I would be remiss to not mention I had been tutored by Polizi on how to deal with opportunist street thugs.  I also never faced in England a "real threat" such as two armed professionals or other situation defining factors.

Later when I lived in the Lakes, I did meet a very small man who had done enough training to be able to do the state-change much better than I ever could.  He went from what looked like a soft touch to having a thief face down very bloodied before I had done more than twitch.  Impressed me to no end.  Turned out he had a sporting and military background, as well has being a numbers man in a Suit.

You mileage may vary, but my personal experience is the English Opportunist Thief/Thug expects a compliant victim, and you too may be able to use that expectation to your force changing advantage if you have the skills & nerve to exploit it.

BTW the Polizi had a school of thought that if you needed to use force, the opposition should somehow always have a memory of it.  I was amazed when a sit-in protester tried to grab & trip a Polizi friend, that he stomped the hand before it could grab him.  Stomped it clearly at a bone breaking level.  Later he told me that he figured "you needed to leave your mark so fools became wise."  Not certain I 100% agree with that, but then there is absolutely no point in worrying about marking up someone threatening you.

Goatdog62

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2009, 04:21:57 PM »
This has gone off-topic but if we're speaking about the Polizei, then I must warn people to NOT mess with them.

I saw a GI refuse to take the BAT (alcohol level check) from a friendly Polizei back in the 80's. Him and his backup jumped him, held him down, and drew blood for the test (instead of the previously offered breath test). Another time they flailed a guy for pushing away the hand of one of them when asked for ID.

There is no denying their professionalism, but they only had two temperatures. Fully calm with rather extreme courtesy and total stomp you down harshness.

On topic.

I filed over 100 use-of-force reports where I used OC Spray to assist in my apprehension of the suspect. I FIRMLY believe in the stuff and have trained my entire family to carry and use the stuff. I train people to this day to use it, even when overseas. It certainly helps level the playing field.

Offline Steve W

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2009, 05:46:30 PM »
On topic.

I filed over 100 use-of-force reports where I used OC Spray to assist in my apprehension of the suspect. I FIRMLY believe in the stuff and have trained my entire family to carry and use the stuff. I train people to this day to use it, even when overseas. It certainly helps level the playing field.

GoatDog what would you recommend for a UK resident where simple possession of Spray is a serious violation, and where they have a track record of using the courts to screw the victim worse than the criminal?

I joked that worse came to worse I boarded a flight or ferry, but even then that was more hollow than practical.

While I had success becoming something unexpected - by not being a victim - that has it risks too.  And it may be very impractical or impossible for a lot of people. 

Thoughts?


Goatdog62

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2009, 07:57:18 PM »
Steve, I was last in the UK in 2005. I don't know the currently banned items that one would carry as I was working that trip and didn't worry about what was legal or not.

If not allowed OC, I would as a minimum carry a kuboton and my usual folding knife. Avoid, Evade, and Counter are the rules I follow for SD.

One time in Mexico I was jumped by three "Wallet Relocation Specialists", #1 had a pole. This is because I failed to Avoid and I failed to Evade. I attacked first with a Shin Rake culminating with a Footstomp on #1, a berserker-like Throat Strike on #2, and watched #3 go into negotiate and run mode. I never "duke" it out with anyone. I could have just as easily been hit over the head with the pole and killed, so luck plays its role.

You attack and I do what I can to end it immediately, this isn't something Hollywood would like because it would be a very short scene. You posture like a peacock, I walk away. Other than some Judo, I have only used Krav Maga stuff. I make every effort not to get in your grasp and not to go to the ground. It helped me years later when I was a cop in the inner-city. I learned some more KM stuff during our regular SWAT Team training. I've been very lucky also.

No matter what, I don't worry about courts when my life is on the line. I have been sued and won.

Offline Steve W

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2009, 08:09:10 PM »
Steve, I was last in the UK in 2005. I don't know the currently banned items that one would carry as I was working that trip and didn't worry about what was legal or not.

If not allowed OC, I would as a minimum carry a kuboton and my usual folding knife. Avoid, Evade, and Counter are the rules I follow for SD.
.....

No matter what, I don't worry about courts when my life is on the line. I have been sued and won.

Perhaps Nirgal can fill us in on the latest.  OC afaik is classed as a Firearm the last I heard!  Knives are somehow considered self-actuating evil entities.

Know what you mean on the difference between being "on" status.  A former HM Customs & Excise agent told me a lot about "on" status privileges - professional courtesy. 

Agree on AEC.  I ended up at "C" in the UK mostly because I was being lazy and also the areas I was asked to work and live in.  Sort of places where our Securicorps Guards lasted one night of patrol with one in Hospital A&E, one run off and the last quit as soon as the police arrived to take over. 

Told it is a bit more civil around the great smoke (London) and I personally never had a spot of trouble in the countryside.  Inner City though was just daft.  In retrospect I was naiive to even put up with it outside of LOD.

Let see if Nigral and TrashCanMan can brief us a bit on what IS allowed currently.



Offline DeltaOscarCharlie

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2009, 02:28:41 PM »
BTW the Polizi had a school of thought that if you needed to use force, the opposition should somehow always have a memory of it. [snip] Later he told me that he figured "you needed to leave your mark so fools became wise."  Not certain I 100% agree with that...

Oh, I do agree with that.  

Pain is a great mnemonic device.  So much so that I truly believe that had my mother subscribed to the "time out" or other non-physical form of discipline I would have been dead or in prison now.  Funny how five serious spankings, given out of love and care without anger, while growing up made such a difference.  But, then again, she was taught by a master. (See, she just had me.)  HER MOTHER had FOUR boys and two girls to raise.  

I know this really isn't the place for this but I have always wondered:  Why is 50 lashes with a cane then release considered inhumane BUT locking someone away for 5 years with the high probability of sexual attack, being assaulted or murdered, being forced into gangs, and having to fight regularly to stay alive considered rehabilitation.


Cheers.

P.S.  My mother was the one that taught me to walk away from a fight.  She also taught me that if I had to fight - to
fight hard, fight dirty, and leave them in a condition where they cannot get up.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 02:30:56 PM by DeltaOscarCharlie »

Offline Steve W

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2009, 02:46:33 PM »
There were Polizi situations where a drunk motorcyclist took a swing at a Polizi and they broke both his arms as their "rough justice."

The fellow happens to be a world class painter exhibiting in NY, Paris, Berlin and all over now. 

Agree with DOC on reinforcement, but not in "Judge Dread" style police work.


Offline DeltaOscarCharlie

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2009, 03:12:09 PM »
Avoid, Evade, and Counter are the rules I follow for SD. [snip] I don't worry about courts when my life is on the line.

HEAR! HEAR!  Better words were never written on this subject. Ever! 

All I want to add is MINDSET MINDSET MINDSET.  I heard an old Korean once say, "What is weapon? Every tool can be weapon if you use it to control over your opponent. This weapon should always be just like a part of your body no matter whether it were a hand or a foot that has been given in your birth or a sword or a bat that you've acquired later. Being a part of your body the weapon should express your intention in mind to the world. Thus, whether or not something can be your weapon depends on whether or not you can expend your will freely through it." 

I believe the key is the last part, "whether or not you can expend your will freely through it."  "Seeing" the 'weapon' hidden in any object unleashes that objects potential AS a weapon.  Whether it be a fly swatter, an apple, or a bulldozer. 

Many do not know that a man who was considered among THE greatest Samurai sword masters, traded in his beautiful katana (long sword) for a wooden stick  during the latter part of his life.  Not even a carved one at that - just a rough piece of straight wood or a tree branch probably about 36 inches long and a couple of inches in diameter.  With that "weapon" (replaced as needed by just picking up another) he went on to defeat or kill many "great samurai" armed with their high quality steel swords who came for the fame they would gain by defeating him. When he died it was of natural causes.   His name:  Niten D?raku.  He was also known simply as: MUSASHSI.

Offline DeltaOscarCharlie

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2009, 03:29:07 PM »
There were Polizi situations where a drunk motorcyclist took a swing at a Polizi and they broke both his arms as their "rough justice." The fellow happens to be a world class painter exhibiting in NY, Paris, Berlin and all over now.  Agree with DOC on reinforcement, but not in "Judge Dread" style police work.

Neither do I.   But the situation you described, sad as it is, comes down to a personal responsibility issue and refraining from doing seriously STUPID things.   

Offline DeltaOscarCharlie

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2009, 03:36:23 PM »
His name:  Niten D?raku.  He was also known simply as: MUSASHSI.

Sorry, it was Niten Doraku and the correct spelling is MUSASHI.  The author of The Book of Five Rings

Offline Steve W

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2009, 07:01:27 PM »
Sorry, it was Niten Doraku and the correct spelling is MUSASHI.  The author of The Book of Five Rings

Is this the book?

http://www.miyamotomusashi.com/gorin.htm



Offline DeltaOscarCharlie

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Offline Jimbo

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Re: Less Than lethal Option. Spitfire Pepper Spray.
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2009, 07:25:04 AM »
 Going to get this goody for the wife & self. My Missus & me both tote SureFire E2D Executive Defender lights as well. Whenever I go to my vehicle in the dark, it's in my mitts.

 As for German Polezei, it's Ja, Herr Offizier, no using the familiar Du with them!! A Polezei van is a whole world of whoop-ass you don't even want to mess with....