The Survival Podcast Forum

Survivalism & Self Sufficiency Topics => Food Preps => Food Storage Resources => Topic started by: chad on November 02, 2017, 07:48:43 PM

Title: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: chad on November 02, 2017, 07:48:43 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/butter-shortage-in-france-2017-10

It's easy too stack 5 or 10 pounds of butter in the back of the fridge...I do, and you should too.

David in MN...how long dose store bought butter last in the fridge?

My guess is a long long time.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: David in MN on November 02, 2017, 08:18:02 PM
Call me out, will ya? Just cause I'm from Wisconsin and worked in the food industry?

For long term, buy salted butter. I had a rep from Cargill explain the salt is there for preservation and unsalted takes on "fridge flavors". So you'll have to ignore the fancy baking books. I do anyway, more salt always tastes better, just ignore the later salt addition.

My butter (from Costco) says it will go in February. Bullsh*t. I could leave a stick on the counter until then. I've never refrigerated butter for use unless in the height of summer. But the manufacturer is writing the code for people who live in Louisiana and Florida where it rains in the fridge. If you're in a moderate climate you'll be fine way past the date and you will know if it's bad (rancidity is obvious).

Butter is my preferred oil. It works magic with cast iron (almost all my stovetop) and contrary to belief is common with many Italian dishes. The northern part can't grow olives, after all. Unless I'm making Sicilian, Greek, or other Mediterranean I generally use butter and I keep 2-7 lbs in the back of the fridge where it's coldest. But all my use is room temp. I use 2 sticks every week.

My recommendation: Buy bulk from Costco (or other bulk), store it in the back of the fridge because it can't freeze there, and pull out and use at room temp to cook with. The butter crock was a perfect invention. If I'm entertaining, I have a warming spot on my stove and will have half a pound melted for adding late to dishes like risotto or to pan for stuffed pasta. Having access to butter at room temperature or already melted is kinda chef 101.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Morning Sunshine on November 02, 2017, 08:52:33 PM
David - you say not to freeze?  I keep a whole box of Costco butter in the freezer.  When I say a box, that is 6 packages of 4 1-pound boxes.  We go through about 3 pounds a week in my family of 7.
We keep 2 cubes out on the counter, and rotate the bowl it is in.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: David in MN on November 02, 2017, 09:15:04 PM
David - you say not to freeze?  I keep a whole box of Costco butter in the freezer.  When I say a box, that is 6 packages of 4 1-pound boxes.  We go through about 3 pounds a week in my family of 7.
We keep 2 cubes out on the counter, and rotate the bowl it is in.

I guess you could freeze it...

Butter, if you look at its history, is our best attempt at shelf stable fat. Along with its cousin lard (which you don't freeze) we have our big two long term fats.

Freezing won't hurt. Other than the slight amount of water will crystallize. But that only means your frozen butter might look "melty" quicker. Not a safety concern.

Saturated fat is very stable. Add salt and whoa... even more. Your ancestors made butter, lard, suet, etc. because they could last in the cellar.

I highly doubt any of us has pushed butter to its bitter end. How many days would it take?

I keep a mug of rendered bacon fat at the cabin. From September to May nobody touches it. Yet come May I use it. It's salted and saturated.

I don't think freezing is bad, but I go way beyond "shelf life" when the fats are stable. My advice, goof off. You'll know when it's bad.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Smurf Hunter on November 02, 2017, 09:45:47 PM
haha.  I ran to Costco during my lunch hour (worked from home today) and bought Kirkland butter and through it in the garage freezer. 
Been doing this for a while, no issues that I can tell, but I'm not a chef.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: mountainmoma on November 02, 2017, 10:09:41 PM
I have butter in the freezer for like a year, or more. There is alot more available room for such storage in my freezer than my fridge.

If butter keeps that well David, then I also have some(as in many) cans of that New Zealand canned butter kept room tmep, how many ears will that go do you think?
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Frugal Upstate on November 03, 2017, 04:17:27 AM
I keep about 6 lbs in the freezer most of the time too -- I always figured it would keep better (but glad to know it keeps so long in the fridge or cellar alone). 
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Carl on November 03, 2017, 05:39:06 AM
  I have been keeping some it the can.... I hear that SALTED is better for storage ,though it can go rancid at room temps in 5 days or fridge in 4 months...it does not freeze well as it is ,or should be ,mostly FAT and not water....I have kept it a year in frozen form. NOTE ,this is BUTTER and not the margarine they try to make people believe as healthy.

I keep butter in the can for over 10 years and my 'open' can is over 14 years old and was unsealed 5 months ago and kept powdered is still great tasting:

https://www.amazon.com/Augason-Farms-Butter-Powder-Can/dp/B0096I6XSU/ref=pd_sim_468_5?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=GMCN075TM7143RADFTV5
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: CarbideAndIron on November 03, 2017, 05:54:06 AM
As someone who eats a high fat diet, I find the idea of a butter shortage to be frightening, haha. I'm definitely going to leave a bigger stock on hand.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: David in MN on November 03, 2017, 06:33:02 AM
I have butter in the freezer for like a year, or more. There is alot more available room for such storage in my freezer than my fridge.

If butter keeps that well David, then I also have some(as in many) cans of that New Zealand canned butter kept room tmep, how many ears will that go do you think?

I don't know anything about canned butter. Never worked with it.

For everyone else, the recommended storage of refrigerated butter maxes out at 9 months. The recommended storage at room temp maxes out at 2 weeks (though it it recommended to be chilled if it's over 70 degrees).

I didn't realize this was a debate! I thought everyone just left butter on the counter like me. Apparently not so. I have some bizarre Midwest cultural thing. Confession time, I used almost all the butter from the dish yesterday and threw a stick onto the counter so we'd have warm butter this morning. But it seems (from research) I'm a bit of a cultist here.

https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/tools-test-kitchen/article/french-butter-keeper-how-to-use

https://food52.com/blog/13237-do-you-really-need-to-refrigerate-butter-9-other-debated-foods

So I fall in the "Butter dish at room temp 365" camp. I've never had butter go bad at home (I have in industry and you will know). People in the industry tend to be a little more like me and don't fear it at room temp. And I guarantee any pro baker leaves the butter out at least overnight because baking with cold butter is a party foul.

In fact, I'm so bad during winter I don't even bother covering the dish. I might wash it between sticks if I remember but likely not. This whole idea seems silly to me. Butter is one of the most ancient of preserved foods. They wouldn't have wasted the time churning if it didn't last at least a few days cellared. But then maybe I just have a cavalier attitude. I don't wash my cast iron with soap and I use a wooden cutting board as well.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Redman on November 03, 2017, 06:47:12 AM
We often use a butter keeper like this not always however.

(http://www.acornadvisors.com/2009_KNews/09-04-09_Butter_Sauces/images/French_Butter_Dish.jpg)

I also don't wash my cast iron with soap, just a blast of cold water while it's still hot. My wooden cutting board get rinsed off with hot water. I let eggs set at room temp for several hours before using also.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: KellyAnn on November 03, 2017, 09:21:49 AM
Do people in France not realize they can make their own butter?
It's not even difficult to do.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Smurf Hunter on November 03, 2017, 09:28:02 AM
I don't know anything about canned butter. Never worked with it.

For everyone else, the recommended storage of refrigerated butter maxes out at 9 months. The recommended storage at room temp maxes out at 2 weeks (though it it recommended to be chilled if it's over 70 degrees).

I didn't realize this was a debate! I thought everyone just left butter on the counter like me. Apparently not so. I have some bizarre Midwest cultural thing. Confession time, I used almost all the butter from the dish yesterday and threw a stick onto the counter so we'd have warm butter this morning. But it seems (from research) I'm a bit of a cultist here.

https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/tools-test-kitchen/article/french-butter-keeper-how-to-use

https://food52.com/blog/13237-do-you-really-need-to-refrigerate-butter-9-other-debated-foods

So I fall in the "Butter dish at room temp 365" camp. I've never had butter go bad at home (I have in industry and you will know). People in the industry tend to be a little more like me and don't fear it at room temp. And I guarantee any pro baker leaves the butter out at least overnight because baking with cold butter is a party foul.

In fact, I'm so bad during winter I don't even bother covering the dish. I might wash it between sticks if I remember but likely not. This whole idea seems silly to me. Butter is one of the most ancient of preserved foods. They wouldn't have wasted the time churning if it didn't last at least a few days cellared. But then maybe I just have a cavalier attitude. I don't wash my cast iron with soap and I use a wooden cutting board as well.

Maybe you are over thinking and/or misunderstanding.  I also leave the butter dish out at room temp.  This is for spreading on toast or quick access.  For the "pantry" I keep 3+ sticks in the fridge.  These are for baking/cooking where 1/2 a stick or more is required, or I replenish the butter dish.  For further pantry depth I use the freezer, where I might have 3+ Costco 4 box packs stacked up.  For my family's usage this rotation scheme has not yet resulted in any spoiled product.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: LVWood on November 03, 2017, 10:00:12 AM
All this talk of storing butter, when the real story is failed economics in France.
Price controls are what's causing the shortage.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: chad on November 03, 2017, 10:04:51 AM
I'm in the " butter dish at room temp 365 camp" also, cast iron and wood cutting board too.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: mountainmoma on November 03, 2017, 10:26:08 AM
I wasnt clear, by canned butter, I meant not the powder, but the actual butter is canned, red feather butter.

I keep butter on an open saucer, but in the cupboard on the top of the stack of plates, so nothing falls on it. It is weeks at room temp these days as I am the only one here and I am on a diet. I only refrigerate the open butter if it is so hot in the house that it is melting, so maybe a few times a year. I have also never seen it go rancid. Cast Iron and wooden cutting boards are the only way to go. I have a real cool wooden cutting board  ;)

So, back to butter shortages, do we think it is going to get worse ?
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Ms. Albatross on November 03, 2017, 10:32:00 AM
All this talk of storing butter, when the real story is failed economics in France.
Price controls are what's causing the shortage.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/6CYXe7Hf8FZyU/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: chad on November 03, 2017, 10:37:35 AM
I wasnt clear, by canned butter, I meant not the powder, but the actual butter is canned, red feather butter.

I keep butter on an open saucer, but in the cupboard on the top of the stack of plates, so nothing falls on it. It is weeks at room temp these days as I am the only one here and I am on a diet. I only refrigerate the open butter if it is so hot in the house that it is melting, so maybe a few times a year. I have also never seen it go rancid. Cast Iron and wooden cutting boards are the only way to go. I have a real cool wooden cutting board  ;)

So, back to butter shortages, do we think it is going to get worse ?


Not sure how long the red feather butter will last MM, but like David said, if the butters bad your nose will know.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Smurf Hunter on November 03, 2017, 10:56:30 AM
Ever hear the term Guns vs Butter?

Time to segue into Nazis...

Perhaps the best known use of the phrase (in translation) was in Nazi Germany. In a speech on January 17, 1936, Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels stated: "We can do without butter, but, despite all our love of peace, not without arms. One cannot shoot with butter, but with guns." Referencing the same concept, sometime in the summer of the same year another Nazi official, Hermann Göring, announced in a speech: "Guns will make us powerful; butter will only make us fat."
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: mountainmoma on November 03, 2017, 11:17:57 AM
Quote
The price of butter has faced a significant increase this year.
Most countries have responded by raising prices, but French supermarkets have been unable to do so.  As a result, there's a butter shortage in France.
Quote
A combination of bad weather in France, which has lowered the supply of cow feed; decreased exports from leading butter producer New Zealand; and increased global demand has increased the price of butter, according to the BBC.

So, sure, France only changes the once a year -- but what is the trend with cost in general, is it going up faster than other food items, ie., faster than we would expect ? Is this a short term blip of supply vs demand or a longer trend ? so many questions, and so little info from the article
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: LVWood on November 03, 2017, 11:29:09 AM
Yes, price controls in France make a shortage there -- but what is the trend with cost in general, is it going up faster than other food items, ie., faster than we would expect ? Is there a reduction in production ? Seems like the article said New Zealand is exporting less butter ?

If a reduction in New Zealand butter imports can cause a shortage, what's going on with domestic production?
Are economics killing milk production in France?

It seems the EU is messing with quotas and milk prices plummeted to a level where farms could not operate and closed.
This naturally led to a shortage of milk and prices increased.
Now because of price controls, markets cannot pay the high price for milk, butter, or cheese because they cannot pass the price increase on to the customer.

Isn't socialism a wonderful thing?
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Carl on November 03, 2017, 11:44:39 AM


Isn't socialism a wonderful thing?

YES...it makes everyone equally poor.   :sarcasm:
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: chad on November 03, 2017, 11:50:01 AM
YES...it makes everyone equally poor.   :sarcasm:


And apparently butterless ???
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Stwood on November 03, 2017, 04:35:37 PM
We've always kept butter in a butter dish, out, in the open, to use.
Then we store 4-5-6 pounds in the fridge, and try to keep that amount in the deep freeze.

We buy butter (real) on sale. Just came home with 4 more pounds, $2.50 pound. Around here, anything under $3.25 is a sale this year. Last year, we could buy butter under $2.00 at sale times.

We also keep the dried butter that Carl linked too. We've used it. It's ok, not the best replacement for real butter, but no complaints here.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: PorcupineKate on November 04, 2017, 08:39:17 AM
I buy butter on sale and freeze it all the time.  I put the butter in freezer ziptop bags to prevent any odors from getting to it and it works great. 
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Carl on November 04, 2017, 09:07:46 AM
  I use it on toast and in my grits and it's good to cook with.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: AvenueQ on November 04, 2017, 05:49:14 PM
We also keep butter in a dish on the counter. When I told my mom this, she was a little horrified and thought for sure we were going to poison ourselves. I think her family must've mostly had margarine growing up (I remember having it when I was really young), and she either never knew or forgot that butter could be left out.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: LvsChant on January 21, 2018, 07:30:56 PM
David - you say not to freeze?  I keep a whole box of Costco butter in the freezer.  When I say a box, that is 6 packages of 4 1-pound boxes.  We go through about 3 pounds a week in my family of 7.
We keep 2 cubes out on the counter, and rotate the bowl it is in.

I don't typically need to freeze the butter, we rotate it quickly enough to just keep it refrigerated. I did have the habit of freezing it in the past, but found that there are certain recipes which don't work (at all) with previously-frozen butter. Candy-making is a real bummer when the butter doesn't work right (can you say ruined English Toffee?).
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Cedar on January 21, 2018, 07:52:21 PM
When I have a milk cow, I freeze extra butter so I have it when I dry her up before calving and have two or so months without fresh milk product, like butter. I notice no difference.

Cedar
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: mountainmoma on January 21, 2018, 09:59:50 PM
I don't typically need to freeze the butter, we rotate it quickly enough to just keep it refrigerated. I did have the habit of freezing it in the past, but found that there are certain recipes which don't work (at all) with previously-frozen butter. Candy-making is a real bummer when the butter doesn't work right (can you say ruined English Toffee?).

Everything I make works with butter that was previously frozen, from cakes to candies like fudge and english toffee. Sorry you had that experience, but it has never been a problem here, even with butter frozen a year.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: archer on January 21, 2018, 11:45:50 PM
I had a butter crock, during the summer the butter would soften enough to fall into the water... so i quit using it.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Chemsoldier on January 22, 2018, 05:46:41 AM
Ever hear the term Guns vs Butter?

Time to segue into Nazis...

Perhaps the best known use of the phrase (in translation) was in Nazi Germany. In a speech on January 17, 1936, Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels stated: "We can do without butter, but, despite all our love of peace, not without arms. One cannot shoot with butter, but with guns." Referencing the same concept, sometime in the summer of the same year another Nazi official, Hermann Göring, announced in a speech: "Guns will make us powerful; butter will only make us fat."
Old Goering would know about being fat...
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Chemsoldier on January 22, 2018, 05:50:01 AM
We keep about 10 pounds frozen and rotate about 3 pounds to the refrigerator and keep a stick on the counter.  Never had an issue with it going bad, though it occasionally gets really soft on the hottest days when the house is open.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: suzysurvivor on August 13, 2018, 06:20:48 AM
I've had butter go bad on the counter but only in the very hottest weather and it had been out for an extended period of time.

I have also never experienced an issue with failure from frozen butter.  I try to keep about 5 pounds in the freezer and 2-3 in the fridge.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Stwood on August 13, 2018, 08:34:13 AM
So.....whats up with butter prices the last 6 months??

We haven't seen it below 3.24 a pound in 6 months. Maybe a sale at Aldi's, but we don't get that way often as it's an hours drive.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Morning Sunshine on August 13, 2018, 09:38:50 AM
We have seven in our house, and we live an hour away from Costco, so when we buy butter, we buy a BOX of butter from Costco.  The box has 6 4-lb packages in it.  And we freeze it until needed.  Then we pull out a 4-lb pack to keep in the fridge.  It lasts us about 2 weeks.  Unless my 14-yo makes bread; then it only lasts as long as fresh warm bread lasts.... ;D
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: AvenueQ on August 13, 2018, 09:42:51 AM
So.....whats up with butter prices the last 6 months??

We haven't seen it below 3.24 a pound in 6 months. Maybe a sale at Aldi's, but we don't get that way often as it's an hours drive.

I've noticed the same thing, butter's not cheap anymore. Also it's becoming increasingly hard to find the standard quarter size, all but one brand at my local grocery has gone to the "fat quarters" as I call them, which don't fit into my butter dish.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Stwood on August 13, 2018, 09:49:27 AM
We haven't bought any lately because of the prices. We usually keep around 12 pounds in the freezer, and I noticed yesterday we're down to 3 pounds.
Title: Re: Butter shortages...in France..yes butter..
Post by: Morning Sunshine on August 13, 2018, 10:56:47 AM
I've noticed the same thing, butter's not cheap anymore. Also it's becoming increasingly hard to find the standard quarter size, all but one brand at my local grocery has gone to the "fat quarters" as I call them, which don't fit into my butter dish.

that is funny.  I have always only seen the "fat quarters" as you call them.  But Costco just went to the skinny ones, and I do not like them!  We do not use a butter dish.  Instead we use a 1-c glass tea cup (corell) and put 2 cubes in there.  That way we can rotate the dishes regularly - every time we need a refill - and not get stale butter taste.  The skinny ones do not fit inside as easily and are top heavy so a new bowl will tip easier.

guess it is all a matter of preference! :)