Author Topic: Heads UP Region 4...  (Read 833 times)

Offline TimSuggs

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Heads UP Region 4...
« on: August 25, 2009, 11:56:00 AM »
A big TSP Hello to all my R4 Brothers and Sisters!  As you may or may not know, R3 has adopted a MONTHLY Meet-n-Greet schedule to be held on the 25th of each month.  Our first is today in Atlanta GA, but our next R3 Meet is scheduled for KY and probably will be held in Lexington, KY.  And that makes it 95 miles from Cincinnati, 148 miles to Dayton, a little over 200 miles to Columbus, 169 miles to Indianapolis.  So, maybe... just maybe, some of our R4 folks would like to join us for a good time at our R3 Meet?

They are free, simple, quick, easy and designed as a "come as you are, stay as long as you want, leave whenever you desire" kind of meet.  Usually at a Starbucks Coffee for the simple reason that we can drink all the free ice water we want, suck up as much of their A/C as we need and flush the toilets as many times as it takes, all without spending a penny, and they won't have the Police escort us out of the place.  So unless one of you know of a place like that in Lexington, it'll probably be at a SB.

So, an open invitation to all of R4, to come and share a moment with your R3 neighbors and participate in the first Multi-Regional TSP Meet-N-Greet in TSP history.

Hope to see you all there!

Here's the link to the R3 Meet Info Page:  http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=8020.0  And right now, it is showing the meet info for TODAY in Atlanta, GA, but the KY Meet will be posted soon.

Tim.


Offline mamabear

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2009, 12:43:53 PM »
I just may have to participate in this. I will be passing through there anyway on my way to TN for the weekend. I may have to take the whole day off and come play!

Offline TimSuggs

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2009, 07:55:28 PM »
I just may have to participate in this. I will be passing through there anyway on my way to TN for the weekend. I may have to take the whole day off and come play!

The more the merrier MB!  I hope we can pull it off.

Tim.


Offline scoutmaster

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2009, 05:31:46 AM »
Tim

Glad you guys are having the gatherings I wish we had something like that  here but, I have come to believe that the majority of region 4 is asleep,  Been trying for years on several different forums to get something like that going here,  I am in michigan so I am a bit to far to make the trip to south of Ohio for just an afternoon coffee.


The way things are going I really think that preparing to take care of ourselves very soon is a must, it is sure apparent that the government  is not going to be taking care of any one.

 Good luck Guys glad to see everyone is not asleep
SM

Offline donaldj

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2009, 06:13:30 AM »
I'm doing my best to make my immediate friends aware of my concerns, and suggest they prep too. My friends have a wide skill set so I invited them all to get to my place should Bad Things Happen.

One of my friends is tentatively on board for the prepping mindset, so I'm going the route of food preparation. He already has the "buy cheap and store deep" mentality, but it takes the form of pantry and freezer only.  He likes to get things when they go on a very good sale. He probably has close to 6 months of food stored, but in a power-dependent fashion.

I'm teaching him about dehydrating, slowly, by talking about my experiences, so hopefully he will try it (he has an interest) to convert his freezer-storage method to a dehydrating method.

All my close group of friends have "standing orders" to get to my house, bringing every piece of food, weaponry, and hygiene items they can. Hopefully they'll start to see the preparedness mindset and take some stock in their house's inventories for very useful items. I know I can't support them all, but I also know my house is somewhat indefensible by myself.

D

Offline TimSuggs

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2009, 06:51:35 AM »
Tim  Glad you guys are having the gatherings I wish we had something like that  here but, I have come to believe that the majority of region 4 is asleep,  Been trying for years on several different forums to get something like that going here,  I am in michigan so I am a bit to far to make the trip to south of Ohio for just an afternoon coffee.
The way things are going I really think that preparing to take care of ourselves very soon is a must, it is sure apparent that the government  is not going to be taking care of any one.   Good luck Guys glad to see everyone is not asleep  SM

Thank You SM!  I doubt if R4 is asleep at the wheel.  It's kind of funny to me that in my travels around this rock, I see different social patterns for different geographic locations, and it's always been my opinion that the Northern States are a little more "reserved" than other places I've been.  So maybe I can be of service to R4 in the form of an Ice Breaker???  Could be a good thing.  Now down har in DixieLand, I think we're all pretty much kin to each other at some point anyway, we wave, speak, honk, whatever when we meet another going our way.  And once you get out of the cities and into the backwoods, you better wave, cause everybody you pass on the roads will wave at you, and if you don't wave back, well... it just wouldn't be po-lite and would instantly tag you as an "outsider".

I had to miss R3's Regional Meet in Atlanta due to a last minute conflict with my wife's work schedule, but I really don't think anyone showed up anyway.  BUT... you gotta start somewhere.  And I know that some R4 folks are going to be further away than others, but maybe some of them can make it to KY, and just maybe that will plant the seed in their heads to go home and do the same thing there. 

So, don't give up yet my friend, ORGANIZE!  Do your own Local TSP Meet-n-Greet in your city.  That was the way I had the idea setup from the gitgo.  A MONTHLY Local, State and Regional affords the most opportunity to attend a meet to the most number of people.  And yeah, you might sit at the coffee shop  all by yourself the first couple of times, but it will happen, another TSP Member will walk through those doors.  "And I know some of us live in some tiny little cities, and that's OK too, maybe a County meet would work, or you might even have to expand your "area" to a region (NW/NE/Etc.) of your State to encompass enough area to bring in a few folks.  And to me, it's not really about the "numbers", it's about sharing some quality time with others of a similar mindset within my own area.  So if just one other person shows up, I'm a happy camper.  But you gotta start... SOMEWHERE.  Good luck to you if you decide to do your own!

Tim.


Offline TimSuggs

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2009, 07:08:38 AM »
I'm doing my best to make my immediate friends aware of my concerns, and suggest they prep too. My friends have a wide skill set so I invited them all to get to my place should Bad Things Happen.   One of my friends is tentatively on board for the prepping mindset, so I'm going the route of food preparation. He already has the "buy cheap and store deep" mentality, but it takes the form of pantry and freezer only.  He likes to get things when they go on a very good sale. He probably has close to 6 months of food stored, but in a power-dependent fashion.  I'm teaching him about dehydrating, slowly, by talking about my experiences, so hopefully he will try it (he has an interest) to convert his freezer-storage method to a dehydrating method.   All my close group of friends have "standing orders" to get to my house, bringing every piece of food, weaponry, and hygiene items they can. Hopefully they'll start to see the preparedness mindset and take some stock in their house's inventories for very useful items. I know I can't support them all, but I also know my house is somewhat indfensible by myself.  D

And right you are Donald!  Bettering you odds for whatever may be coming down the road at us is what this is all about.  I think one of the best ways to get people to "see the light" is by leading by example.  You would be an excellent teacher/mentor for your friends and neighbors.  From your message, I assume you have a little bit of land and a house somewhere in R4, and if I am correct, then you are a lot better of than a lot of us here on TSP.  And you have a wonderful opportunity to use what you have to introduce new people to what we are all about here.  Put in a "learning garden" and invite your neighbors, city folk to come to your place and give them a single row to plant their own food.  A wonderful learning experience for whole families to participate in.  Maybe form a few "workgroups" of interested friends and neighbors to build a small barn, animal pen, wind generator, solar array, raised beds, etc.  For some reason, it seems to be human nature to be willing to "help" someone to build their project than to actually do it for themselves.  By allowing them to help you, you are giving them the new skills and experiences they need to be able to do it for theirself whenever that time of need comes to them.  And you get some extra hands helping out with your project too.  A win-win for all.

Helping you to find others in your own area of a similar mindset is what the TSP Meet-N-Greets are all about.  Getting together with friends over a cup of coffee and kicking the dirt around a little bit exposes you to new ideas, new experiences, and new concepts that you've never even dreamed of yet.  Hope you can make it to KY to share in our M-n-G there September 25, 2009.

Tim.


Offline donaldj

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2009, 08:32:57 AM »
And right you are Donald!  Bettering you odds for whatever may be coming down the road at us is what this is all about.  I think one of the best ways to get people to "see the light" is by leading by example.  You would be an excellent teacher/mentor for your friends and neighbors.  From your message, I assume you have a little bit of land and a house somewhere in R4, and if I am correct, then you are a lot better of than a lot of us here on TSP.  And you have a wonderful opportunity to use what you have to introduce new people to what we are all about here.  Put in a "learning garden" and invite your neighbors, city folk to come to your place and give them a single row to plant their own food.  A wonderful learning experience for whole families to participate in.  Maybe form a few "workgroups" of interested friends and neighbors to build a small barn, animal pen, wind generator, solar array, raised beds, etc.  For some reason, it seems to be human nature to be willing to "help" someone to build their project than to actually do it for themselves.  By allowing them to help you, you are giving them the new skills and experiences they need to be able to do it for theirself whenever that time of need comes to them.  And you get some extra hands helping out with your project too.  A win-win for all.

Helping you to find others in your own area of a similar mindset is what the TSP Meet-N-Greets are all about.  Getting together with friends over a cup of coffee and kicking the dirt around a little bit exposes you to new ideas, new experiences, and new concepts that you've never even dreamed of yet.  Hope you can make it to KY to share in our M-n-G there September 25, 2009.

Tim.



Thank you for the vote of confidence. 

To me, prepping has so many facets that it is easy to market to virtually anyone. As I mentioned above, I'm trying to market the idea of food storage to one guy. Another friend lives on the very edge of Detroit, and knows he'll have to get out early, or probably not at all. So, the idea of what we call a Bug Out Bag is forming in his mind.

Later, as these ideas take more hold, new ideas can be cultivated. Will they ever be full-blown preppers? Probably not. But my goal is to get my friends to safety, to add to my safety, and ideally with enough food and ammo saved up so as to minimize burden to my own stores.

I live in R4, Michigan to be exact. I have a house in a subdivision, which is in a township bordering on rural. My friends call it "the country", but it really isn't.  If it came down to it, my 'hood has enough common land to start a massive garden or farm. Seeds to plant are on my list of things to get. Asking permission to plant a neighborhood garden is actually on my list of things to do in the late winter (gives time for debate). If successful, part of the commons will be divvied up for this. If unsuccessful, I will plant on my own lot.

Come harvest time, I will (as if by magic) be offering to teach dehydrating and storage. Canning, too, if I learn myself and get set up for it.

It's almost insidious!  =)

Don



Offline scoutmaster

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2009, 01:01:38 PM »
Don


I to have a house in a subdivision, which is in a township bordering on rural.  "the country", but it really isn't. 

Also glad to see that we do have others here, I am in the S/E So I feel I am in A must get out location. Much like but not as bad as your friend. After we had the east cost black out I desided it was time to have another location in the Northern part of the State. I just dont think it will be safe to be any place south of Bay City, and then some. So I have been putting togather a BOL the only way I can see making it.  I tryed for several years to put togather A group here in Michigan but havent been able to stur up any interest. Hope you do better.
SM

Offline TimSuggs

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2009, 08:54:22 PM »
Donald:  You got the right idea, and as the old saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" is pretty much what you may have in your own neighborhood.  BUT... if things did get as bad as they might, then being the man who walks out of his garage with a sack full of seeds to plant so there's food for the whole neighborhood, would put you right up there at the top of the list of local hero's.

And yeah, I know it takes time for seeds to grow into edible food, and then there's the MI weather, but if you have the foresight to see the train wreck coming down the tracks and can get things going as soon as possible, well...

Maybe for you, the right way to "prep" IS to do now, what no one around you sees as necessary today.

ScoutMaster:  Same thing might even apply to you here, and to a lot of others as well.  If you're happy and content with your little "village", then when the SHTF, "circling the wagons" and cutting off the outside might be a good choice for your community.  And the more that someone (anyone) does NOW, to prepare to meet the needs of their immediate community, would be a lot better off than maybe trying to bug out and go it alone.  And there's no way I or anyone else can make that call for any of you.  But I can see a close knit community banding together for defense, food, and survival.  Might not could do it in Flint, Detroit, or Lansing, but in the more rural areas or even those communites on the fringe areas betwixt Metro and Country could pull it off.

Just an idea.

Tim.


Offline laser

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 07:04:54 AM »
Not sleeping here in SW WI, just having a devil of a time getting my wife into a prep mindset.
laser

Offline TimSuggs

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 11:58:27 AM »
Not sleeping here in SW WI, just having a devil of a time getting my wife into a prep mindset.
laser

LOVE the tagline and the Matrix banner Laser! 

I think a lot of us have similar problems with our spouses, male and female.  SoccerGrannie has said several times that her husband is "not of our mindset", but he's slowly coming around.  And I don't care what the "subject" is, you have to find some common ground with the person, something that they can equate to 100%, as it would relate to them.  Now wimmin, don't get out the tar and feathers for what I am about to say here, but "I" would think that most (a lot, the majority, more than a few...) would be able to see the prep side of things and relate to them from a food viewpoint, or maybe a clothing viewpoint, or maybe a homemakers viewpoint better than say from a hunting viewpoint, or a gun related viewpoint...  See my point?

And considering I just hung up my "Mr. Mom? apron yesterday after 21 years, ladies, you will not find another man here that has more respect for what is typically considered a "female role" in the homemaking arena.  It is indeed the hardest "job" I've ever done (aside from raising 3 kids).  All I'm saying is there are inherent differences between the male/female gender, and I mean more than the obvious.  As a Police Officer, I would prefer a Female partner, they are calmer under stress, can shoot under stress better, and can usually drive under stress better than their male counterparts.  So please don't think I was dissin' the wimmins.

Laser I think you just gave me a new idea...  I hope you like it when I get through with it.  And it might just give you some answers to your "problem".

Tim.

Offline mamabear

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 12:37:16 PM »
Tim, I would have to say from a female perspective you are mostly correct. I think after talking to my mom and sister that they both are thinking from the girly point of view, and that is where I started, but it did not take me too long to figure out that defending what we stocked would become a vital part of the equation. I am fully certain of my ability to protect me and mine. The rest of my family, with my dad the gun nut aside, would probably not be able to unless death was threatened. I would love to include my dad in my preparations, but alas he is a bit too conspiracy theory nut. I think we would shoot him ourselves if we had to live with him or go crazy ourselves. I am thinking now more along the lines of homestead and how to sustain us all (and being totally overwhelmed on how to get it all done and learned by myself) at a home instead of just feeding us for a year. I am considering the alternate power sources, water issues, chickens/goats, etc. I think I need a step by step plan because this is all super overwhelming. It kinda makes me wish I had a SO to help with all these tasks. Then I usually come to my senses and realize that would just create a whole new set of issues! ;)
Edit: grammer
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 01:02:59 PM by mamabear »

Offline TimSuggs

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2009, 12:50:24 PM »
Well THANKS MB.  At least I didn't offend you.  I think it takes a lot to make anyone "see" our point of view when it comes to prepping.  I've talk to people that have just said they would rather be flat assed DEAD rather than have to even "think" about surviving in a post SHTF world.  And for those, they'd probably be better off if they got their wishes.  But for others, they have that ingrained human desire to survive, they just haven't had a long talk with it yet.  Those are the ones I think it's "worth" spending my time on, even if it means my having to "provide" a little for them to get to a safe place when/if something happens.  They'll figure it out on their own after that.

Tim.


Offline mamabear

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 01:10:07 PM »
Tim, I agree that the ones that say they would rather be dead would be better off that way if that is what they truely wanted in a SHTF senario. Unfortunately, I think the survival instinct would kick in and they would join the hoardes of folks scrounging for food and supplies. I think the comment about the ones that would be worth the effort is where my sister comes in. She makes a bit of talk and minimal effort for "prepping" but is not interested in helping the masses that would show up at her house if the SHTF, and I don't blame her. I am at a loss for including them because while her SO's family has a few talents that could be helpful, they have been "not so nice" to my mom (swoods) and me. I am not sure that including them, even though they could have useful skills would be the best thing for the stress and morale issue. How do you guys deal with this? And have any of you men out there that are trying to "convince" your other half thought about having another female discuss the meritts of prepping? Would it perhaps come off less "manly" and more family if another mom, wife, sister, daughter etc proposes the idea?

Offline TimSuggs

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 08:03:29 PM »
I am at a loss for including them because while her SO's family has a few talents that could be helpful, they have been "not so nice" to my mom (swoods) and me. I am not sure that including them, even though they could have useful skills would be the best thing for the stress and morale issue. How do you guys deal with this? And have any of you men out there that are trying to "convince" your other half thought about having another female discuss the meritts of prepping? Would it perhaps come off less "manly" and more family if another mom, wife, sister, daughter etc proposes the idea?

I too have "undesirables" in my family tree MB, and for me, they are simply SOL and on their own.  If you look at what "life" might be like in a post SHTF environment, you don't need anyone to babysit, appease or coddle.  And you damn sure don't need someone who wants to show their butt and argue at every turn.  I say leave 'em to the wolves.

As far as your other idea about enlisting the aid of another female prepper, not a bad idea.  As long as it's a good relationship between husband and wife.  I know that sounds silly that the "introduction" of another female that happens to see it the way "hubby" does, might upset the boat, but I've seen grown men who underwent gastric bypass surgery just because their wives did so they wouldn't "loose" them.  Lot's of silly folk out there these days.  But yeah, on the surface it seems like a good idea. 

Tim.


Offline scoutmaster

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 11:42:01 AM »


ScoutMaster:  Same thing might even apply to you here, and to a lot of others as well.  If you're happy and content with your little "village", then when the SHTF, "circling the wagons" and cutting off the outside might be a good choice for your community.  And the more that someone (anyone) does NOW, to prepare to meet the needs of their immediate community, would be a lot better off than maybe trying to bug out and go it alone.  And there's no way I or anyone else can make that call for any of you.  But I can see a close knit community banding together for defense, food, and survival.  Might not could do it in Flint, Detroit, or Lansing, but in the more rural areas or even those communites on the fringe areas betwixt Metro and Country could pull it off.

Just an idea.

Tim.



You might be right on the locations, I guess there is really no way to tell until it happens. My problem with that thought process is that here in the whole southern parts of the state( I have lived here my whole life) we have one large city from Detroit and toledo  in the east to Chicago in the west with Kalamazoo, Grand rapids ,Jackson, Adrian and Coldwater ( chucked full of prisoners) Ann arbor,  and so on. I don't see anyplace that is not with in A tank of gas to get to and back from in or near any of those locations. All (I think) will be easy pickings, or at least they will seem that way to those in the multitude of the cities and the huge populations that they have and can not support.

Just my thoughts, I have not really had any good debate with any one that made me feel any different so far. I don;t believe even with well planned and well stocked defenses that it can be done safely.

As many of the articles written by  professionals seem to say it takes a small community and a  general thought of working together. I still see that in a few of the isolated northern towns and communicates. There years behind of the southern state feelings of get it while you can.  Its just from every aspect it sees like a better plan.  A lot of work and A huge amount of  planning finishing and paying for but then how much is the family worth.

Just my thoughts
SM

Offline TimSuggs

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Re: Heads UP Region 4...
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 10:15:53 PM »
You might be right on the locations, I guess there is really no way to tell until it happens. My problem with that thought process is that here in the whole southern parts of the state( I have lived here my whole life) we have one large city from Detroit and toledo  in the east to Chicago in the west with Kalamazoo, Grand rapids ,Jackson, Adrian and Coldwater ( chucked full of prisoners) Ann arbor,  and so on. I don't see anyplace that is not with in A tank of gas to get to and back from in or near any of those locations. All (I think) will be easy pickings, or at least they will seem that way to those in the multitude of the cities and the huge populations that they have and can not support.   Just my thoughts, I have not really had any good debate with any one that made me feel any different so far. I don;t believe even with well planned and well stocked defenses that it can be done safely.  As many of the articles written by  professionals seem to say it takes a small community and a  general thought of working together. I still see that in a few of the isolated northern towns and communicates. There years behind of the southern state feelings of get it while you can.  Its just from every aspect it sees like a better plan.  A lot of work and A huge amount of  planning finishing and paying for but then how much is the family worth.   Just my thoughts SM

So...  Sm wants a debate.  I think we can find one of those around here, lemme look around a minute...  OK, found it.  As far as how things "might" happen, well that's anyone's guess at best.  I can see some rural city's/towns being attacked if things went bad in the big cities real quick.  Hungry people are desperate people, couple that with a sense of power that some people get off on when there is a societal breakdown and yeah, I can see people headed to the smaller areas to take what they need/want and do as they please.  Might be single individuals, might be a group of 5, or could be a group of 50, or more.  All humans find strength and anonymity in numbers, so I could see lawless gangs forming left and right, it's just human nature.  Think of riots you have see on TV, the Reginald Denny beatings, the Miami Riots, the LA Riots, and on and on.  You would rarely see a "lone wolf", but rather a group/gang of 5, 10, 20 folks all participating in throwing trashcans at the storefronts, turning over cars and torching them, running out of the stores after looting them, etc.  Even the "bad" cops in New Orleans after Katrina formed into groups to do their damage.  so, yes, to me, I see the potential for the hypothetical "roaming/roving hordes" as they are often referred to.  That's my first point of debate SM, I think there WILL be roving hordes to deal with.

My second point of debate, would be that they CAN be defended against.  Take one small town/city of 200/500/1000 residents and task them with defending their town from a gang of 50, well, that's just a question of who has the most "muscle", and it's very clear whom has the numerical advantage.  Do you need M-60 Machine Gun emplacements around the town perimeter, of course not.  You'd be surprised what 100 riflemen could do to repel a gang of 50 with nothing more than 100 .22 rifles.  So how do you "arm" 100 townsfolk with .22's.  Well, you don't.  What YOU do, is institute a .22 rifle marksmanship course through your local shooting range, gun club, hunting club, YMCA, etc.  That way when (IF) the SHTF, you already have the hardware, and the trained riflemen to put on the towns perimeter to stop anything that is moving your way with bad intentions.  And you can talk firepower of this vs. that all you want to, but when you bring 100 (or more) .22's to bear on a single target, A:  You're going to do some damage to whatever it is, and,  B:  It really doesn't matter what you got shot by, your still wounded and hurting and looking for the door with the "Exit" sign as quickly as possible whether it was your ear that got blowed off or your little finger that the .22 relieved you off.  If you can inflict mass wounding on any assaulting group, they will most likely find much easier picking down the road and leave you be.

OK, that just about covers "Community Defense", let's move on to food.  "When" the SHTF does play a large factor in your plans when it comes to feeding your little town.  Here again, you're not trying to be the only one that is storing MRE's for the whole town, but rather you are the initiator of things like Community Garden Spots, classes on canning, helping others start their own backyard "Victory Gardens, you promote SFG (square foot gardening), you give classes on raised bed technique.  You teach, you share, you empower you neighbors and townsfolk to take that first step down the path of self sufficiency, you learn how to repair small engines, typical farming equipment and such and then you help others to obtain their own farming implements buy repairing/rebuilding and reselling to them.  You learn everything you can about early settlers/Indian food growing technique, organic methods, etc. so that you may share that knowledge with your neighbors after the lights go out.  You become THE community resource for all things grown organically.  And you create seed banks, seed exchanges, etc. with others of a like mindset (like you'd find here on TSP Forums or at a Local/State/Regional Meet, etc.)   

See a pattern emerging here?  YOU don't have to be the prepper for the whole town with 1000's of cases of MRE's and ammo in your basement, but YOU can be the teacher, educator, organizer, supplier even, of all things along a "survival/self sufficient" way of life, plan of action, etc.

OK,  I'll give you a break here SM and call it a night, give you a little time to digest my "ideas" here and formulate your responses.  And please remember, I am Southern Born and Southern Bred, and I have very little actual knowledge of what longterm everyday life in a colder climate can be like.  I spent 10 years in OKC, OK and that was pretty much the most snow I had ever seen in my life.  Had both a heatstroke and frostbite in the same 24 hour period there.  So, factor my Southern heritage in (pronounced "overlook my stupidity of northern growing season/techniques, etc.) your interpretation of my ramblings.

Tim.

PS:  This little debate is open to anyone that cares to join in it.  I think SM would agree the more the merrier.