Doggcrapp

[David in MN]

I'm serious. This is kind of a new fad workout for serious bodybuilders. It goes like this: Do a set to exhaustion. Put the weights down for 10 or so deep breaths. Repeat to exhaustion. Put the weights down for 10 or so deep breaths. Repeat to exhaustion.

It has gotten a lot of attention from lifters. It's NOT a beginner routine, you need form down. It's also a little odd almost hyperventilating and pushing through to lift more. I'm not claiming to be a big expert, I've just done it a couple times but oh man does it wear me out. And I'm a long term HIT user so exhaustion is comfortable.

I'm curious if anyone has tried or has thoughts.

[CarbideAndIron]

I have done the rest pause work in the past for some stuff, it definitely gives you a pump. But I haven't ran it long enough to know it it actually creates a different stimulus than just normal sets, or super sets, etc...
I remember reading about Doggcrapp from the guy that thought it up, Dante something, back in like 2010? He said that the basis of his training is heavy reps, rest pause, and stretching. There was probably more, but that's what I recall as the staples of it. Hard to argue with those principles though.
But as you mentioned, it's certainly not for beginners. I can see lots of possible problems with a beginner going to failure on the bench, then trying for more a couple times.

[David in MN]

I've done a few tries at it. Not for the faint of heart. But I also like it because in an odd way it lets you add reps quickly. The 10 6 3 easily becomes an 11 5 4.

Hate to admit it but I like these workouts because of age. I've had enough injuries and setbacks to prevent me from doing the one rep max type lifting I did in my 20s. I like the higher rep progressive overload for strength. And I really like that Doggcrapp (like Arthur Jones' HIT) gets me in and out in 30 minutes. I just don't have 2 hours a day anymore.

I'm no expert. But I'll do a few Doggcrapps every month because I like the progression. If I find something I'll post it.

[CarbideAndIron]

I might add some in as well. I just got done with a block of higher intensity, lower volume training for a meet. I plan to increase the reps a bit to the 8-12 range, and drop the loads for a while. Give my body a break and build up some work capacity.
I hear you about the 20's being gone. I used to be able to drink, barely sleep, then lift heavy constantly. Now I really have to put a priority on all the little details to be able to do a percentage of what I used to.

[Redman]

In high school ('60s) we did what they called super sets. Heaviest bar you could lift for as many times as you could having 2 helpers standing by to take the bar when you couldn't move it. Then just a bare bar as many times as you could. Surprising how fast you came to "can't move the little bar".

[surfivor]

I generally am more
Of a fan of moderate exercise, apparently yogananda said that a lot of heavy strenuous exercise is detrimental to a life of meditation. The heaviest workout I may get can be from surfing. Probably there is a point where heavy exercise may wear out the body faster. Even though you are gaining strength I would think longevity may decrease

If I ride a bike I may peddle fast for a couple minutes and then ride slow for a while and then fast again. This raises the heart rate but then goes back down for a more restful moderate period

[Redman]

Most strenuous exercise I get any more is mowing the yard and that's a killer.  Both shoulders shot from years of heavy work. Back in bad shape, do stretching for that.

[David in MN]

I don't brag about it much but in my 20s I dislocated my left shoulder while military pressing 225 lbs. I was at the time  training with guys who later played in the NFL. Rehab took 2 years and I'm still a shadow.

I have never gone back to heavy lifting. Don't get me wrong, I can goblet squat half my body weight for 20 reps. I barbell curl 115 lbs every week for 12. I'm not weak, I just can't do the heavy power high weight stuff anymore. I'm happy to get stronger using the lower weight with slow reps and progressive failure.

It's a process of being more careful. I have tennis elbow in both elbows. I have diminished mobility in my left shoulder. I have knee and ankle problems from years of running track.

I've let down 23 year old David who wanted to be the next Magnus von Magnusson but it kinda worked out in the end. I do these kind of workouts to keep being the strongest guy on the block even if I can't load up a deadlift like when I was younger. For now it seems to be working.

[CarbideAndIron]

The best thing for messed up joints, is strong muscles to protect them. Obviously that means rehabbing it, then building strength around it in a way that is safe. But I have herniated my L4/L5, tore my right rotator cuff (labrum), and right hammy. Just had to be smarter about the ways I have built back up. Now the only time my back bothers me, is when I take off a week from lifting.
Funny thing is, none of those injuries came from heavy barbells, they were all from outside the weight room stupidity. 600+lb tire flip cold (and drunk), grappling, hill sprints (cold). Hopefully now that I learned to warm up, and don't drink, I'll keep my healthy streak going a while.
I'm not saying that we all need to pull over 800 like young David did, but I am saying that strength training is a fantastic way to be healthy.

[The Professor]

As a person who was a power lifter for over 20 years, I can say that I'm personally against anything "high intensity" with heavy weights.

This will probably be a very unpopular statement, but as one who suffers from having participated in every fad imaginable when it came to weights (with the notable exception of Crossfit, for which I was too sensible to fall), I have also suffered (and continue to suffer) the results of those fads.

First off, stop working out emotionally.  No, I don't mean stop screaming or "getting mad" when you work out, I mean stop evaluating your workouts based on how you feel.  I have seen people go back and do extra sets or even entire workouts because they didn't think they'd worked out hard enough.

Here's a deep, dark Secret that most people simply refuse to accept: If you work out, even slightly, you will see improvements.  As long as you try to progress,   your body will do so (unless there's something physically wrong with you).

For example: I would work out the typical 4-zones in a standard way: Monday would be Back and Biceps; Tuesday would be Chest and Triceps; Wednesday I would take off; Thursday would be legs; Friday would be Shoulders, Forearms and Traps; I would then take Saturday and Sunday off and do the same workout the next week.  Oh, sure, I'd change up the lifts and intensity, but I would make sure that I was in the gym working out the appropriate zone on the assigned day.

If I was sore, I still worked out.  on high-intensity weeks, I'd throw myself into the workouts doing whatever I had to do to complete the goals.

Today, my joints, tendons and ligaments are much the worse for wear.  Yes, I gained size.  Yes, I gained massive strength.  For the longest time, I had a limited range of motion, but I fixed that in the five years before I quit by having a mobility coach in addition to my strength and conditioning coach.

But here's the deal:  I noticed something interesting.   During the latter part of that twenty years, I did a lot of coaching for amateur sports teams.  Most of these teams were for recreational sports where the participants seldom practiced more than 2 or 3 times a week, if that. 

I noticed that the players who weren't as "committed" to working out still improved.  Eventually, due to the nature of the sports, I noticed that the ones who stuck to it would seem to plateau, physically, at about the same levels. . .just a different times.  Where the "hard core" players might do it in two or three months, the others would catch up in 6-8.  Everyone would seem to remain there and continue to slowly improve as long as they continued to play.  Once the season was over, they all would soon return to Square One at almost the same levels.

I submit that going slower, maintaining a continued and controlled progression, without the high-intensity slamming and forced exhaustion of muscles and other body parts will still get you the results you want, just at a slower rate than you may wish.

I am just now getting back into training following a multi-year forced hiatus stemming from injuries and family situations, and I promise you, It's going to be a much slower and gentler lifting routine than I did all those years.  My joints simply can't take that much strain or stress, anymore.

The Professor

[Redman]

..........I submit that going slower, maintaining a continued and controlled progression, without the high-intensity slamming and forced exhaustion of muscles and other body parts will still get you the results you want, just at a slower rate than you may wish.

I am just now getting back into training following a multi-year forced hiatus stemming from injuries and family situations, and I promise you, It's going to be a much slower and gentler lifting routine than I did all those years.  My joints simply can't take that much strain or stress, anymore.

The Professor

I think I can agree with a lot you've said. I used to do fairly heavy work, lifting, climbing, etc. Then went to a more sedentary job in the same industry and finally retired. Since retiring I've done very little physical exercise and recently got hit with the old age back pain I'll call it. Nerve pain in the L5 S1 area, sciatica. I've been doing PT and the pain went away then the PT doc said it's time to do core strengthening. The pain was back with a vengeance but different, more like muscles rather than nerves and it moved around to different spots continually. So a couple weeks into this part and I just discovered that from the exercises I do at home I am now able to get up off the floor without the aid of a chair to pull myself up and the pain is almost completely gone.

[CarbideAndIron]

First off, stop working out emotionally.  No, I don't mean stop screaming or "getting mad" when you work out, I mean stop evaluating your workouts based on how you feel.  I have seen people go back and do extra sets or even entire workouts because they didn't think they'd worked out hard enough.

Here's a deep, dark Secret that most people simply refuse to accept: If you work out, even slightly, you will see improvements.  As long as you try to progress,   your body will do so (unless there's something physically wrong with you).

But here's the deal:  I noticed something interesting.   During the latter part of that twenty years, I did a lot of coaching for amateur sports teams.  Most of these teams were for recreational sports where the participants seldom practiced more than 2 or 3 times a week, if that. 

I noticed that the players who weren't as "committed" to working out still improved.  Eventually, due to the nature of the sports, I noticed that the ones who stuck to it would seem to plateau, physically, at about the same levels. . .just a different times.  Where the "hard core" players might do it in two or three months, the others would catch up in 6-8.  Everyone would seem to remain there and continue to slowly improve as long as they continued to play.  Once the season was over, they all would soon return to Square One at almost the same levels.

Your first paragraph is gold. You definitely don't need to feel a pump, or "destroyed" to be making progress. Too many people get addicted to chasing that feeling. You can take a weight that will make your eyes bleed, and crap yourself to get 5 reps, and get a better training load from doing 3 or 4 doubles with it instead of that one set of 5 that killed you.
But it depends on the goals of the lifter, there is nothing wrong with a lifter doing some rest-pause sets to increase the amount of volume.

From a basic physiological stand point, any living organism just needs stress, then recovery from it, in order to adapt (get bigger and/or stronger in this case). But the stress needs to be great enough to disrupt homeostasis, or the body doesn't need to adapt. The set point (homeostasis) goes up as you progress, so the stress must increase through volume or intensity.

The issue with the athletes you coached is quite common. The program did a great job of producing enough stress to cause a disruption which will drive adaptation. But as their level of strength adapted to that, the stimulus needs to grow with it. The stress from the program also needs to be greater, take longer, and make slower progress as they grow.
Also, as the stress increases, the recovery becomes more important. The more advanced the trainee, the more important recovery is, and the longer it takes. You can't control how your athletes ate and slept when you weren't around, so it could have been the case that they just didn't do enough to recover from the stimulus of your program as the adaptation got tougher to come by.

Just as the athlete's body adapted to the stress of your coaching, after the season they stopped training, and then their bodies adapted to the lack of stress. They detrained.

[David in MN]

I don't take any offense to any opinion. We're all trying to crack the same nut but we all bring different skills and tools. In my 20s my workout was Monday back and biceps, Tuesday chest and triceps, Wednesday legs, and Thursday shoulders. It was grueling. I spent 2 hours every day in the gym going full blast.

When I found Arthur Jones and HIT it was like getting my life back. I could train the whole body in 30 minutes. That's what I really like about one set workouts. The time.

Bear in mind I also box, cycle, kettlebell, battle rope, and do a lot of other athletic things. I do HIIT cycles on the weights too. And once in a while I might even skip a workout because I'm just not in the right mindset. I've found that if I try to push myself I never perform as well. I also skip a lot this time of year because I do so much work outside planting.

It's about constant evolution.