Author Topic: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]  (Read 19249 times)

Offline Sephiroth

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Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« on: October 31, 2013, 05:03:55 AM »
Hello everyone,

So, i read a lot about how the .22LR is a must need for survival. Also, i read a lot about how many situations can be solved in deploying a .22LR...

So, i began to question if i should or not get one. But some questions come to head when i start digging info about it. So i would like to ask them here, any input will be appreciated !

1º - Leaving in a city as big as São Paulo, and in an apartment, what good will a .22LR do me ?

IMO, a .22LR for home defense is just crazy. So it has no home defense utility... Since i live in a big city, and on the 5º floor, what will i use a .22LR for ? Bugging out ? I fail to see how a .22LR has any utility in a big city.....

2º - Bolt Action or Semi-Auto ?

Well, there are some nice options here in Brazil. Such as this:
http://www.falconarmas.com.br/shop/rifle-super-match-22lr-lancamento-mundial-p-4621.html

But, i dont know.... Semi-Auto is more easy i suppose. But i like bolt action best. And some say that a bolt action is more reliable than semi-auto..... The one i linked, is Bolt-Action and holds 10 rounds. Which sounds very good.

3º - Effectivness

Well... Simple one here. How much damage can a .22LR do ? Does it have any use rather than small game/Pest Control/Plinking/Training ?

I have an awesom Airgun. Shoot pellets of .22 size at 275 mt/s.... So i dont know... To me, a .22LR beets the crap out of an Airgun, but then i think about question 1º again and struggle to see a use for it.

==========//================================//============================

I really understand the use for a .22LR is survival situations. Makes sence. But as a city guy, do i need one : Or should i stick with my .45ACP plan and just have a handgun.....?

Thanks people !  :D

nelson96

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2013, 07:45:57 AM »
I think you've answered your own question.  IMO there's only two reasons the .22lr is a good choice for survival and that is cost and weight.  IMO it's actually a very bad choice, if it's going to be your only rifle, especially if you live in the city.

Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2013, 08:45:08 AM »
Agree Nelson,

But then again, if i had to bail my home and bug out would a Pistol and a .22LR do ? I think a lot about my bug out plan. I would not want to take every weopon i have, but a Pistol and one Rifle or Shotgun would be nice.


nelson96

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2013, 09:22:31 AM »
Agree Nelson,

But then again, if i had to bail my home and bug out would a Pistol and a .22LR do ? I think a lot about my bug out plan. I would not want to take every weopon i have, but a Pistol and one Rifle or Shotgun would be nice.

You can only shoot one at a time.  IMO your situation requires both (a pistol and a rifle), but my choice wouldn't include a .22lr rifle if I were to choose just two firearms.

Offline flippydidit

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2013, 09:48:24 AM »
You can only shoot one at a time.  IMO your situation requires both (a pistol and a rifle), but my choice wouldn't include a .22lr rifle if I were to choose just two firearms.
Wrong!   Oh wait....you mean accurately.  Ok, that's a true statement.  If you just want to look cool, then YES, you can shoot both at the same time.  I've got a video somewhere where I'm shooting an AK-47 and my XD45 at the same time.  I give the middle finger to transition firing.  Shoot 'em both instead of transitioning!   Muahahaha!!!!

Offline Mo

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 08:44:17 PM »
The 22 is an overachiever.  It might not be ideal but tactics can be adjusted to make it more effective.

A story I've shared several times is one of my great Aunt who shot all sorts of game out of her garden with a pump action 22lr.  The menu included Deer.  That rifle also put down Beeves and Hogs.  Pretty much all the meat served at her table was produced with that rifle.  While not ideal for Deer, her garden was close to the back porch, the deer were stationary over bait (the garden) and she was a good shot well into her 80's.

I very much doubt an attacker would willingly expose themselves to gunfire regardless of the caliber.  Certainly there are penetration and range issues with the 22lr but I sure as heck wouldn't want to get shot with one.

From cover, a concealed defender armed with a 22lr, delivering accurate fire would be very dangerous indeed.

The big advantage of 22 (at least until recently) is the economy of the ammo.  That can equate to someone who shoots enough to be very proficient with their firearm.  Its minimal recoil and report make it easy for even children to shoot well. 

Ammo is also very compact which in a survival situation where mobility is required a lot of ammo can be carried with minimal weight penalty.  Resupply is unlikely in many scenarios so being able to carry a lot is a huge plus in my book.  A 22 rifle and 500+ rounds of ammo is lighter than many centerfire autoloading rifles.

If hostilities are part of the situation you find yourself in you might be able to use your 22 to "liberate" another weapon better suited for the purpose of fighting. 

Once resources become limited I doubt ammo/fuel/medical aid will be wasted or risked in bold military style maneuvers unless the reward of such action will greatly exceed the expenditure of those resources.  Sarajevo type sniping will probably be more common when one force engages another.  More Siege than Blitzkrieg is my guess.

The kid across that street can hit an 18" plate 70% of the time with an iron sighted Henry Levergun.  It isn't going to have a lot of poop left when it gets there but it'd still ruin my day if I was hit and that is especially true if no medical assistance is available.

Is it ideal?  No

Can it get you out of a jam?  Maybe

Can you feed yourself with it?  Yes if you have practiced both marksmanship and field skills.

Offline Sam

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2013, 02:49:59 PM »
I think really a shotgun might be a better choice for you.  Good for small game with #6-#8, good for self defense and short range larger animals with slugs and buckshot.  You don't get a better threat stopper than a shotgun and 00 or slugs.  I think a shotgun might be a better option, especially something with a shorter barrel and a changeable choke system.  The shotgun, of course, is not a death ray that just needs to be pointed in the general direction of the threat.  Still gotta practice with it and aim.

Offline iccustoms

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2014, 05:38:25 PM »
You definitely don't "Need" a 22 rifle.  While they have many merits so do other weapons depending on their intended role.  That said, I think the question may be "What do you have?"  Is that pellet rifle the only weapon you own?  Is that why you are interested in purchasing a 22?

The most useful gun tends to be the one you own.  You can game the situation all day long but what you have in hand, are confident with and have trained with is your best option.  I am not sure what you can legally purchase down there but I am sure that will drive your decision.  There is no one size fits all.

Training trumps Caliber...

Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2014, 03:39:23 AM »
Yep,

Training over caliber... That is what got me going for the last months...

I decided to get a .22. Reason is, it has a lot of utility's, especially training and small game - pest control. Since me B location is far in the coast, it will have its place.

Just fired a CZ this weekend, felt great ! But it was semi-auto not bolt action... I believe Bolt Action is more indicated to a beginner like me, in semi-auto i tend to shoot more rounds then i need/should... Bolt Action makes me focus on each shot.

Cheers !

Offline Cedar

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2014, 08:19:14 AM »
I don't know anything about guns... but...

When I did SAR, I carried a Jennings .22 pistol. It really was not more than a peashooter, but it might be a slight deterrent to 2-legged varmits and a noise maker to scare off 4-legged ones. I never had to use it on a search in 15 years. I also carried it for years under the seat of my truck, and next to my bed when I had problems with my ex stalking me for years. Thankfully I also never had to use it for that situation. It is what I had, so it was what I had.

I use a Savage .22LR to put down sheep, hogs, beef, goats, llama etc for butchering. They are less than 12 feet away. Usually less than 3. Placed right, it usually drops them on the spot. So it is quite deadly. A .22 is also more quiet than other guns I think. Unless you have a silencer or something on them.

I also prefer a bolt action.

When I was helping track a wounded bear last year, I carried a Springfield 9mm pistol. I was in dense brush and I felt that a rifle was going to mess me up in being able to bring the gun around, let alone being able to walk through the brush. The two guys I was with both had something like 30-30's or 30-06's, and a side arm. I felt if I had a bear encounter, it was going to be closer VS further away. It was a small bear, only about a 90 pound yearling. When my family visited friends in Alaska, the man had shot a Grizzly the day previously who was trying to come into their cabin point blank with a .44 pistol and emptied it. The bear turned, walked away and my dad, the man and a friend tracked that bear for three days and it had just kept walking. So I was not under alot of illusion that the 9mm was going to stop the little bear I was tracking 100%.

Cedar

Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2014, 10:22:29 AM »
Thanks for your input Cedar ^^

There are three main motives for me to get a .22LR. Good way to train, easy to find ammo and very cheap ! And i really does have a place in the small size field !

I can see why so many people defend its use for a Prepper. I just had trouble figuring out why have a 22LR in the city. But then it hit me, i might not always be in the city. Or need something bigger then the .22LR. Why use a .308 or 7.62 if a ,22LR will cut it right ?

Cheers !

Offline Mortblanc

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2014, 10:55:57 AM »
Hello everyone,

So, i read a lot about how the .22LR is a must need for survival. Also, i read a lot about how many situations can be solved in deploying a .22LR...

So, i began to question if i should or not get one. But some questions come to head when i start digging info about it. So i would like to ask them here, any input will be appreciated !

1º - Leaving in a city as big as São Paulo, and in an apartment, what good will a .22LR do me ?

IMO, a .22LR for home defense is just crazy. So it has no home defense utility... Since i live in a big city, and on the 5º floor, what will i use a .22LR for ? Bugging out ? I fail to see how a .22LR has any utility in a big city.....

2º - Bolt Action or Semi-Auto ?

Well, there are some nice options here in Brazil. Such as this:
http://www.falconarmas.com.br/shop/rifle-super-match-22lr-lancamento-mundial-p-4621.html

But, i dont know.... Semi-Auto is more easy i suppose. But i like bolt action best. And some say that a bolt action is more reliable than semi-auto..... The one i linked, is Bolt-Action and holds 10 rounds. Which sounds very good.

3º - Effectivness

Well... Simple one here. How much damage can a .22LR do ? Does it have any use rather than small game/Pest Control/Plinking/Training ?

I have an awesom Airgun. Shoot pellets of .22 size at 275 mt/s.... So i dont know... To me, a .22LR beets the crap out of an Airgun, but then i think about question 1º again and struggle to see a use for it.

==========//================================//============================

I really understand the use for a .22LR is survival situations. Makes sence. But as a city guy, do i need one : Or should i stick with my .45ACP plan and just have a handgun.....?

Thanks people !  :D

The one thing you have not addressed is the "PLAN".  Are you intending to remain in "the big city" after SHTF or evacuate to a rural area?

In either case forget the .22.  It's uses will be limited now and latter.  Anything your pellet rifle will do badly the .22lr will do equally badly.

I would gladly ditch every .22 I own, except for one sentimental favorite, if I could recoup my investments.

I have switched over to use of a single shot pistol caliber for almost all my predator, pest and livestock protection duties  here on the farm.  I simply grew tired of wishing I had something bigger every time I picked up a .22lr, and sometimes the shotgun is too much when a raccoon is in the corner of the chicken house and I do not want to blow a big hole in the wall and/or pump a dozen .22 slugs into him.

For evacuation to a rural area and survival in that setting, in Brazil, I would recommend a good pump or double barrel shotgun.  it is more versatile as both a defense weapon and food getter.  Do not saddle yourself with the short barrel and open choke, it limits your food gathering potential.  Get a gun with interchangeable choke tubes. 

A hunting type shotgun will do just as well as a tactical riot gun at stopping a riot, but a riot gun will not produce food as well as a hunting type shotgun.

If you are remaining in the "big city" and hunkering down on that 5th floor you might find a .45acp a valid option.  You are going to be defending in close quarters, not hunting for food.  The convenience of having protection one can conceal in that situation would be immense.  It can be stuck in your belt and move from room to room and always be accessible.

 

Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2014, 11:45:39 AM »
hey Mortblanc,

My plan is simple. Disaster strikes, i do a 48 hour Bug-In. If in 48 hours thing to get better or anu sign of getting better is seen, i evacuate to the shore line where i have a family house. Staying in such a big city that is in chaos for 48 hours is just crazy. Here, in 48 hours you can easily see the first signs of WROL.

The shore house is in a much less dense city, and it is more defensible and easier to stock preps. Cedar thought me the 101 of preppeing water and food and i did that both here in the city and there in the shoreline.

We get a lot of pests and small animals there. Hence the .22LR. But i do intend do follow the Shotgun-Pistol-Rifle triad. So i will have other options. Criminals in Brazil have access to Battle-Rifles such as M16, AK47 and G226... So defending a home here is to dangerous in WROL.

In case anyone is wondering, the MOST PROBABLE disaster scenario in Brazil is obviously a Major Power Grid failure. Happened this year again in northern Brazil, where WROL happened and six people died. WROL develops fast in case of a Power Grid failure because Police cant get mobile and communicate effectively in such situations....

Thanks for all the feedback's !!

Cheers

Offline soupbone

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2014, 04:17:07 PM »
Two quick thoughts on this: Firstly, look at what your First People, or Indigenous People are carrying. They are in what for us would be a post-SHTF situation as a matter of normal life. Carry what they carry. Secondly, why is it we assume the most probable threat in a situation is a human threat? Given your location - urban area, etc., your biggest threat might just as well be dog packs or even large rats. A .22, especially an autoloader, will allow you to address the problem effectively without announcing to the neighborhood that you have a gun.

Besides, they're fun......

soupbone

Offline Cedar

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2014, 04:57:39 PM »
Firstly, look at what your First People, or Indigenous People are carrying. They are in what for us would be a post-SHTF situation as a matter of normal life.
soupbone

Did you see this soupster? This was six days ago...

Guarani Indians use their bows and arrows to stop drivers from passing a roadblock they imposed in Sao Paulo, Brazil.


Cedar

Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2014, 06:44:35 PM »
Yep,

That kinda happens a lot.... But they never target civilians.... This was a first.

Thinks are a bit of a turmoil here right know, you will be seeing this kind of stuff a lot on the news during FIFA 2014....

Offline soupbone

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2014, 10:03:00 PM »
Nat Geo just had an article about the Kayapo and their fight to preserve their reserve in central Brazil. Seems like hydroelectric power-plants and dams are going to flood a lot of their area. The Kayapo's advantage is that they are more than willing to use "western" technology to advertise their issues, while taking pride in and continuing their traditional way of life.

Targeting civilians, especially in an urban area like this, is not a good tactic, IMHO. There could be enormous repercussions if someone, Indig or Brazilian, gets hurt. On their territory, a different story, though.

soupbone

Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2014, 05:14:22 AM »
Nat Geo just had an article about the Kayapo and their fight to preserve their reserve in central Brazil. Seems like hydroelectric power-plants and dams are going to flood a lot of their area. The Kayapo's advantage is that they are more than willing to use "western" technology to advertise their issues, while taking pride in and continuing their traditional way of life.

Targeting civilians, especially in an urban area like this, is not a good tactic, IMHO. There could be enormous repercussions if someone, Indig or Brazilian, gets hurt. On their territory, a different story, though.

soupbone

Yes, i also feel that way Soupbone... Targeting civilians is the bad way to go... But they wont do anything. The Kayapo never were violent, they are just trying to be heard.

But, the Police is looking at there every move. Because some other tribes, like the Apurinã for example, are VERY VIOLENT when it comes to issues regarding there territory...  So LEO are actually shadowing them around the city...

The Damn there building, is going to be bad.... Lots of angry tribes saying they will invade and kill workers on the site. And in the middle of the jungle they reign absolute. So i really don't know how this will turn out... I reckon Dilma will build that Damn even if it means sending the Army to protect it....

Offline soupbone

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2014, 09:50:53 PM »
This is a truly sad situation. On the one hand, you have the rights and culture of the indigenous people; on the other hand, you have the resources Brazil needs to modernize. The many verses the few. Is there a balance?

Same thing with the burning of the rain forests - the land is needed for Brazilian development. In spite of the dire consequences of getting rid of "the lungs of the Earth", who are we, especially in North America, to tell you not to do this?

No easy answers.

soup


Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2014, 08:52:02 AM »
Also keep in mind that the .22s place in survivalist world is usually as part of a 4-5 gun battery.   There is no such thing as a one perfect gun and attempts to do everything generally become such a compromise that the effort becomes...a lot of arguing about a little matter. Take the Scout rifle concept. Neat rifle. But not the be all end all.

Also a .22 can have some legal advantages (ease of acquisition and permitting) in countries with tighter laws than the US.


nelson96

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2014, 11:53:47 AM »
Also keep in mind that the .22s place in survivalist world is usually as part of a 4-5 gun battery.   There is no such thing as a one perfect gun and attempts to do everything generally become such a compromise that the effort becomes.

WHAT??. . . .  The internet, and this forum, is full of proof why the .22lr can be the save-all and end-all survival rifle.  Haven't you heard that it can kill a deer and a human?. . . .   Sarcasm over. . . .   Thanks Chem for keeping the thread grounded.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2014, 12:27:52 PM »
WHAT??. . . .  The internet, and this forum, is full of proof why the .22lr can be the save-all and end-all survival rifle.  Haven't you heard that it can kill a deer and a human?. . . .   Sarcasm over. . . .   Thanks Chem for keeping the thread grounded.

I also agree that a .22 is not the be all end all.. I would prefer a .30-06 or a .30-30 or something for a deer.

BUT.. if a .22 can drop a 800 pound cow, a 300 pound llama, a 1,100 pound horse, or a 400 pound hog, why can't it kill a deer? Granted, you would have to be closer, but I can get up to about 30 feet away from our local deer (about 5 of them) and after having killed the former mentioned animals, I don't see why it couldn't drop a 120-200 pound deer. Is a .22 less powerful than a recurve bow? I know people who kill deer with recurves.

If you were in the situation of needing to be quiet of where you are located, is not a .22 for killing game (I would probably come up with something of a different choice however) alot less quiet and the sound carry far less than a .30-30?

Cedar

nelson96

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2014, 12:49:58 PM »
I also agree that a .22 is not the be all end all.. I would prefer a .30-06 or a .30-30 or something for a deer.

BUT.. if a .22 can drop a 800 pound cow, a 300 pound llama, a 1,100 pound horse, or a 400 pound hog, why can't it kill a deer? Granted, you would have to be closer, but I can get up to about 30 feet away from our local deer (about 5 of them) and after having killed the former mentioned animals, I don't see why it couldn't drop a 120-200 pound deer. Is a .22 less powerful than a recurve bow? I know people who kill deer with recurves.

If you were in the situation of needing to be quiet of where you are located, is not a .22 for killing game (I would probably come up with something of a different choice however) alot less quiet and the sound carry far less than a .30-30?

It certainly can kill a deer, but simply can isn't good enough for me to depend on. My butcher won't use a .22 anymore to drop cattle at just feet away.  On one occasion, before he went away from it, he shot one of my steers in the head and the steer turned away from us and busted out of the pen carrying the gate around his neck down my pasture.

I certainly own and use a few .22's, but they are a part of a mix of various other purposeful guns.

Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2014, 04:14:51 AM »
I agree Nelson,

I really would like to have just one Rifle, but look like a .22 is something to go for. Since a shotgun is so more versatile i will buy one first, then a .22LR.

Been looking at some ballistic numbers, a .22LR is almost twice as powerful as an Airgun, so not buying one and relying on my Pellet gun is not an option. Besides, the .22LR i want is semi auto an my Airgun is a break barrel... Takes to much time to reload...

Thanks for all the reply s ^^

Offline faultlineliving

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2014, 05:16:59 PM »
Check your ballistics on the air rifle. A CB cap is 2 times more powerful than some of best air rifles.  mass * velocity *2 = Energy.   Some High Velocity Ammo is greater > 150 lbs coming out of a rifle.

Offline Sephiroth

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2014, 07:15:28 AM »
Check your ballistics on the air rifle. A CB cap is 2 times more powerful than some of best air rifles.  mass * velocity *2 = Energy.   Some High Velocity Ammo is greater > 150 lbs coming out of a rifle.

Yep, you are right.

Besides, a .22LR is also more accurate then an Airgun. So it makes more sense having one. I do own a awesome Airgun, but it can´t compete with a .22LR...

Offline Mike Centex

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Re: Why do i need a .22LR ? [+ CZ ZKM 455]
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2014, 10:02:36 PM »
I like my 10/22 but there are 10,000 squirrels and rabbits in heaven today thanks to my Marlin Glenfield I got for Christmas at age 12.  Dead accurate bolt with 7 shot clip.