Re: "Firearms for TEOTWAWKI" - Discussion Thread

[ZenGunFighter]

+1 ^

[PistolWhipped]

Good question.

Get training then worry about gun selection.

Seriously, training is probably more important than gun selection, within reason of course.

John

Obviously, but having all the training in the world will do no good without a rifle when you need it.  My opinion, get a working rifle, and then learn how to use it, not the other way around.

Though I agree, training is vital.  I have James Yeager's Fighting Rifle and Fighting Pistol DVDs, and a lot of free space to practice.

[RacinRob]

Well, if no one has any pistol requests, I guess I'll turn it back over to you whatzhizname.

Sorry to be late to the party.... But 2 I would add are the S&W M&P and the HK USP descendants.  Such as, the p2000 and the HK45/P30/p30s.  I guess I think it is a little silly to go and buy a USP new since the HK45/p30/p30s can be had for about the same amount of money.  Maybe add them as notes to the USP since there isn't too many differences in how they work but IMHO they are much more comfy.

[PistolWhipped]

NP.  I figured the USP actually covers the USP descendants, but I can't believe I forgot the M&Ps.  I'll work on them later.

[templar223]

Obviously, but having all the training in the world will do no good without a rifle when you need it.  My opinion, get a working rifle, and then learn how to use it, not the other way around.

Though I agree, training is vital.  I have James Yeager's Fighting Rifle and Fighting Pistol DVDs, and a lot of free space to practice.

And a rifle without training will do you little good if you can't fight with said rifle.

Let's just say we have a difference of opinion about training.  I've seen plenty of students in my courses - hundreds in fact - that couldn't make three hits at 100 yards with their rifles FROM PRONE!  No warm ups.  No excuses.  Pull the rifle out, get set up and make three good hits on an Army AQT target. 

In my urban rifle classes, I see more of the same - and add in malfunction prone guns (not the guns, but the upkeep & preventative maintenance or lack thereof), fumbling, inability to manipulate controls, poor gear and ammo selection, and the list goes on and on.

These are the very people you're talking about 'better get a rifle and worry about how to use it later'.

Buying a piano doesn't make you a musician.  So why in the heck would you buy a gun and rely on it to save your life in a critical incident without getting training?

Also, even the BEST DVDs on how to use a gun aren't nearly as good as the worst training class.

Shop around, find a good training class and you'll be absolutely amazed at how little you knew before learning how to fight with your gun(s).

I'd start with a handgun class, then take a rifle class and if you're a training junkie, then take a knife class then a first-aid class.

Why?

You carry a handgun everyday, right?   That's first priority.

What would be your preferred tool if trouble was headed your way?  The rifle.

Why knife?  If you're close in to a BG (6'-9' or less), your pistol will do you no good until you deal with the knife he's wielding.

Why first aid?  It's the neighborly thing to do to save your friend's life or maybe your own if you get hurt.  (That's why your spouses should be CPR-trained at the very least!)

There are too many people worried about "What gun for SHTF?" that don't know very much about how to USE that tool.  Get training.  Then worry about the gun.

As an added bonus, good gun training is compatible with any make or model of firearm in that particular platform.  I'll shoot the rifleman's standard with a Garand, M4, or an SKS - well, a good SKS.  And more importantly, I can fight with said guns as well, thanks to a couple hundred hours of training from some of the best in the nation including Rogers, Farnam and Sullivan to name a few.

John

[RacinRob]

And a rifle without training will do you little good if you can't fight with said rifle.

Let's just say we have a difference of opinion about training.  I've seen plenty of students in my courses - hundreds in fact - that couldn't make three hits at 100 yards with their rifles FROM PRONE!  No warm ups.  No excuses.  Pull the rifle out, get set up and make three good hits on an Army AQT target. 

In my urban rifle classes, I see more of the same - and add in malfunction prone guns (not the guns, but the upkeep & preventative maintenance or lack thereof), fumbling, inability to manipulate controls, poor gear and ammo selection, and the list goes on and on.

These are the very people you're talking about 'better get a rifle and worry about how to use it later'.

Buying a piano doesn't make you a musician.  So why in the heck would you buy a gun and rely on it to save your life in a critical incident without getting training?

Also, even the BEST DVDs on how to use a gun aren't nearly as good as the worst training class.

Shop around, find a good training class and you'll be absolutely amazed at how little you knew before learning how to fight with your gun(s).

I'd start with a handgun class, then take a rifle class and if you're a training junkie, then take a knife class then a first-aid class.

Why?

You carry a handgun everyday, right?   That's first priority.

What would be your preferred tool if trouble was headed your way?  The rifle.

Why knife?  If you're close in to a BG (6'-9' or less), your pistol will do you no good until you deal with the knife he's wielding.

Why first aid?  It's the neighborly thing to do to save your friend's life or maybe your own if you get hurt.  (That's why your spouses should be CPR-trained at the very least!)

There are too many people worried about "What gun for SHTF?" that don't know very much about how to USE that tool.  Get training.  Then worry about the gun.

As an added bonus, good gun training is compatible with any make or model of firearm in that particular platform.  I'll shoot the rifleman's standard with a Garand, M4, or an SKS - well, a good SKS.  And more importantly, I can fight with said guns as well, thanks to a couple hundred hours of training from some of the best in the nation including Rogers, Farnam and Sullivan to name a few.

John

I don't get it?  Don't you do both? Buy the best gun that you can (or a 10/22) and then get training with it? 

[templar223]

I don't get it?  Don't you do both? Buy the best gun that you can (or a 10/22) and then get training with it? 

My mistake on lack of clarification:

Sure, get a basic gun (10/22 or a clean, iron sight center-fire rifle) then take some classes.  If you don't have a rifle, don't sweat it!  Most shooting schools will have loaner guns if you bring the ammo, tuition and a willingness to learn.  You might even have a chance to try various types of guns (AK vs. AR) or even brands and subtypes (piston vs. impingement ARs, SKS vs. AK-type) to see what works well for you and your budget.

The problem comes in when people without training buy a rifle and foolishly put all sorts of crap on it because of what they read somewhere and at that point they believe they are "ready" for SHTF.   You can't buy proficiency in a box.  You need instruction and practice - and more practice.  Rinse and repeat. 

Practice without instruction first is often just reinforcing bad habits and flawed form.

John

[RightArmOfWyoming]

There could definitely be a section for people living "in occupied territories" like Canada, Europe and Australia.

Blow gun.

I think the reason so many guys hunt with bows in Wyoming is that they've had they're gun rights taken away from some past felony charge.

MWD

[whatzhizname]

I definitely would like to add a section for people living in Canada, Australia, the UK, etc. and have been doing a little research to that end.  I'm hoping to get back up to speed on finishing up this book and then offering it as a PDF download for Jack's audience and maybe do a limited print-run as well.  Like so many things in life it just takes time to get a project shepherded through to completion. 

[RightArmOfWyoming]

I definitely would like to add a section for people living in Canada, Australia, the UK, etc. and have been doing a little research to that end. 

Airsoft and slingshots!

MWD

[PistolWhipped]

And a rifle without training will do you little good if you can't fight with said rifle.

Let's just say we have a difference of opinion about training.  I've seen plenty of students in my courses - hundreds in fact - that couldn't make three hits at 100 yards with their rifles FROM PRONE!  No warm ups.  No excuses.  Pull the rifle out, get set up and make three good hits on an Army AQT target. 

In my urban rifle classes, I see more of the same - and add in malfunction prone guns (not the guns, but the upkeep & preventative maintenance or lack thereof), fumbling, inability to manipulate controls, poor gear and ammo selection, and the list goes on and on.

These are the very people you're talking about 'better get a rifle and worry about how to use it later'.

Buying a piano doesn't make you a musician.  So why in the heck would you buy a gun and rely on it to save your life in a critical incident without getting training?

Also, even the BEST DVDs on how to use a gun aren't nearly as good as the worst training class.

Shop around, find a good training class and you'll be absolutely amazed at how little you knew before learning how to fight with your gun(s).

I'd start with a handgun class, then take a rifle class and if you're a training junkie, then take a knife class then a first-aid class.

Why?

You carry a handgun everyday, right?   That's first priority.

What would be your preferred tool if trouble was headed your way?  The rifle.

Why knife?  If you're close in to a BG (6'-9' or less), your pistol will do you no good until you deal with the knife he's wielding.

Why first aid?  It's the neighborly thing to do to save your friend's life or maybe your own if you get hurt.  (That's why your spouses should be CPR-trained at the very least!)

There are too many people worried about "What gun for SHTF?" that don't know very much about how to USE that tool.  Get training.  Then worry about the gun.

As an added bonus, good gun training is compatible with any make or model of firearm in that particular platform.  I'll shoot the rifleman's standard with a Garand, M4, or an SKS - well, a good SKS.  And more importantly, I can fight with said guns as well, thanks to a couple hundred hours of training from some of the best in the nation including Rogers, Farnam and Sullivan to name a few.

John

I don't disagree with you on training my friend, I just feel it is easier to train when you have a rifle of your own to use, as opposed to a beater of a loaner that has been shot to death at whichever gun school you attend. 

I know I at least maintain my weapons, and keep them in working order.  I can't say the same for a guy who is scrubbing the carbon out of the gas tube on the 7th AR he's cleaned today.  Same when I go to the pistol range, I know most pistols I bring are going to be cleaned and maintained meticulously, and I know that many of the other guns the range rents 6 or 7 times a day will be less cared for.

[Heavy G]

Another great resource for gun research and comparison is gunup.com.

Here's a thread on it: http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=21934.new#new

[Paulie]

Hi Whatzhizname.

I really enjoyed your firearms for TEOTWAKI article. I had not been aware of the existence of the .357 sig before I saw it in your article. I did notice that you don’t make mention of any double rifles and shotguns.

One of the first firearms I was thinking of grabbing is my Savage M24 in 22LR and 20GA, so as a fairly new prepper I am wondering if that would be a bad choice and why? 

Thanks
Paulie

[tween]

a more pertinent question might be how one is going to carry more than one longarm, when shtf? If it is not at hand, what good is it for you, hmm? do you really believe a gang of looters is going to let you go trade that short ranged shotgun or .22 or slow repeat shot bolt action for your ak? Of course they are not and you dare not risk not having that fighting rifle at all times. So the issue becomes one of picking the most versatile fighting rifle, does it not?  The models for which there are .22lr conversion units are the most versatile, it is a big "hit" against a longarm (as a shtf choice) if it does not offer a way to use the quiet, readilly available .22lr rd, as well as being able to take deer to 200 yds or so, or snipe men to 1/4 mile or more. 

You don't need a shotgun. Birds are not worth a shotshell if shtf means you can't replace that big, heavy, bulky shell, and it's too noisy for no more meat than you get. Each shot is likely to call in your killers, remember that.  Birds land, critters stop moving, and a quiet .22lr can take them easily. So can traps, and traps can be working for you 24-7, and in 50 locations at once. Trotlines, fish traps, and gill nets are the primo ways of gathering flesh food, really, not hunting, especially not shotgun blasting at small game.

[PistolWhipped]

"Need" is dictated by numerous criteria.   Availability, Legality, Familiarity, Cost, etc. 

A shotgun is capable of taking small game, killing attackers, and stopping bear all in the same package.  They are legal in countries where rifles are regulated or even banned.  Their ammo is common.  They and their ammo is affordable.  At relatively close ranges, it is unmatched in terminal lethality, on man or beast.

It may not be ideal for everything, nothing ever is, but it is a versatile tool, and a practical firearms battery would be incomplete without it.

[tween]

Like Tappan, you assume things are going to be about 100x better than they will be, if shtf. There won't be time or utility for anything but a fighting rifle, and maybe a pocket pistol. Cannibalism will be a commonplace event within 3 months of the power's going out.

[PistolWhipped]

I have no illusions as to the state of many things.  I also don't think I'll be a nomad carrying everything I own on my back, fighting roving hoardes of brigands.  I have a fighting rifle, an AK variant.  I also have a hunting shotgun, and an pricing a fighting shotgun.  It is possibly the penultimate close range/base defense long arm, especially when engaging fast moving targets in close range environments.

I can make a .22 bolt gun work if I need to.  And my fighting rifle, the 7.62x39 AK, can be used for 99% of what I'd need a full caliber rifle for.  But I also don't  expect the absolute zombie apocalypse.  If it happens I have the ammo to handle it for a while, it's just not the most realistic situation to prepare for.

As for weapon transitions, you walk around with the AK in hand, and switch to the other weapon (if I were walking around with 2 long guns, rifle 2 would be a long range bolt action) if the opportunity presents.  And I can transition to handgun in a flash (dive through sling straight into drawstroke) so it's not nearly as hard or time consuming as you make it out to be.  It's the craftsman, not the tool.

[Mr. Bill]

a more pertinent question might be how one is going to carry more than one longarm, when shtf?

A wheelbarrow might work.

[tween]

Less than 10% of the US population hunts, and for less than 10% of the time. Still, if it were not for bag limits, regs against baiting and jacklighting, etc, the game would all be gone. Now imagine dog packs running all the bigger animals, and starving cats catching all the small stuff, and everyone trapping and taking advantage of all ways of hunting. The animals will all be gone in a month, once the power goes off.

the reason many think they need a long range bolt action is the Ak is at best a 250 m rifle.  Get an AR and be able to reach 500 yd men and you wont need to bother.  The need, at all times, to be also carrying 30-40 lbs of survival gear, because at any time, you can be "cut off" from your base of supply. Carrying 2 longarms is a impractical. So is hunting for food. It's not going to be feasible.

***edited to remove personal attack.***

[TANK]

I hope I did this correctly and I'm not breaking rules, If you need to get rid of this, I just thought the information would be useful.

http://shtfamerica.blogspot.com/p/weapons.html

There is some interesting stuff on this link

Tank

[Heavy G]

Nothing wrong at all, TANK.

Thanks for the link.

[TANK]

Ok here we go. The topic is, (Firearms for TEOTWAWKI.) My thinking is the type and caliber/ gauge of firearm for the individual use, hunting self defence or both. I look at the type and caliber/gauge first. My first pick for a handgun would be a Glock model 22 or 23 in 40 caliber a altertive would be a 9mm model 17,19 as I really like the Glock family. my second pick would be the Sig model 226 in 40 caliber. My third pick would be a Berrata Model 92 in 9mm. Some weapon for backup or conceled carry I perfer the Glock model 23 as this is my edc.

The reason I have picked these is due to battle field pickup. Several Police Department carry the Glock 40 caliber guns, and several Departments carry the Sig 40 caliber guns with the 40 caliber in the area, maybe the battle field pickup would be easy ammo available. The reason for the 9mm, the military carries the Berrata model 92 as well as several other countries and the 9mm as a nato round. No Police Department in this area carries the 9mm or the 45 acp.

Shotgun   First pick would be a Mosseberg Model 500 12 ga. with different barrels, for tactial and hunting applications,and a Mosseberg model 500 in 20 ga. with different barrels for my wife. I would have several single barrel break open 12 ga and 20 ga. shotgun for different stashes. My second pick would be Remington 870 in the above gauges and barrels. I would not go with a semi-auto shotgun for a shtf situation too many things could go wrong with a semi-auto shotgun. Unless you went with a Saga, I don't think the barrels of a Saga are interchangeable.  But I'm looking at the cost factor as well. By haveing these model of shotguns, they are inexpensive and work everytime the trigger is pulled.

Now for a rifle, I would have an AR-15 Manufacture at this time I don't thing would be an issue. Although some Departments around this area are chosing the Sig 556 or the Rock Island. I thing for the gas piston the use. I would not have less that 7 mags 30 round each. My second pick for a rifle would be a Ruger Mini-14. 

[Heavy G]

TANK:

Awesome picks (mainly because I agree with them).

On the .40 versus 9mm topic, here's a thread on that: http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=20784.msg224438#msg224438

[TANK]

I like the .40 better because in this area the .40 is wide spread, some other area a different caliber may be wide spread. I was reading in some areas the 10 mm is used mostly because of the dangerous game. Which the 10 mm is almost exactly like the 41 mag. but with 15 rounds of 10 mm in a glock model 20 is a lot of medicine for dangerous game. I have a couple of 9mm and can't say anything bad about them if the right ammo is used.Full metal jacket ( hard ball) has a good reputation of over peneration. Talking with some solders from Iraq and stans. They tell me with hard ball several shots are needed to put a bad guy down. and the same with 5.56 hard ball.

I understand in the U.P. of Michigan the law enforcement carries M-14 in .308 in the cars because of the could be dangerous game, (black bears, couger, wolfs, and so on.)  I do understand some areas the law enforcement are now trading in their 40 cal for the 45 acp in these areas I would like the 45 acp better if nothing but for ammo availability, ( battle field pickup).
Thanks for the reply
Tank

[Cannon]

Tank, I do like your picks   I've been thinking of getting a Berreta 96fs to add to the collection.  I'm also really considering a Mossberg 500 12 ga in the configuration you've described.

Talking with some solders from Iraq and stans. They tell me with hard ball several shots are needed to put a bad guy down. and the same with 5.56 hard ball.

It's interesting that this theme keeps popping up.  I think that part of the problem is that a significant portion of the military simply is issued and consumes ammunition without being particularly required to understand the 5 W's.

Army Soldiers are typically issued both the M4 Carbine (14.5" barrel) and M855 5.56x45mm ammunition, which was designed for a number of reasons that don't include engaging unarmored mal-nutritioned combatants at short range.  Please note that I'm not attempting to infer anything.  The average enemy combatant simply isn't wearing body armor, or a well fed infantry soldier of a modern military force.  The shot impact on the typical battlefield casualty is often not sufficient enough to cause the M855 round to reach its optimal damage potential (penetration of 7-10 inches before it begins yawing), thus causing substandard performance.  (Research).  Having said that, though, proper shot placement is effective no matter what the caliber in question is.

If you look at the history of the commonly available NATO rounds, you'll see that they were developed and accepted for very specific reasons.  Some of those reasons were simply requests for standardization, or to conform to Laws of War.

Personally:

I do keep some M855 around for the steel penetrator core, but I'm typically looking for a more dense (77gr) round to perform a job like shooting through a windshield.  For home defense, a medium velocity soft point or hollow point should do the trick without having to worry about over penetration.  There's just so much ammo out there for the .223/5.56mm platform, and most of the problem is matching the ammo to the rifle and intent.

9mm FMJ NATO also follows a similar history, and for defensive use you won't find anything but hollow point in my pistols.  I'm a .40 guy, so the same rule applies there.  I personally believe that the shooter has a responsibility to minimize secondary effects, and FMJ will typically punch right on through a target and maintain enough velocity to, say, punch through a wall. 

[TANK]

The reason the military can only use full metal jacket or (hard ball) is because of the Geneva and Hague Conventions.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions#Common_Article_3_relating_to_Non-International_Armed_Conflict

Besides in war, a wounded solder requires more people to care for them, than a dead solder.

But in a teotwawki situation we are not governed by either conventions. Although I do have soft point, and hollow point ammo for hunting. I perfer to have on hand hard ball only because of the expense. I can buy about 3 times the amount of hard ball as I can the soft or hollow point stuff. I believe in a teotwawki situation looters and rioters are not going to be very well trained. So with that in mind the first couple of shots are going to scatter most people, and if I'm wrong, people coming thru the door aint gonna like their reception.