Dealing with Neighbors

[Greyghost]

Hey Ladies, and Guys if they're listening in...this is kind of a long explanation, so bear with me.

Our little family of 3 moved from suburbia to a 4.5 acre parcel in "the country" at the beginning of this year. Super excited to take our homesteading to the next level. However, we have a neighbor to the South of us, that has become a nuisance. I'll explain:

We left for a 2 day trip recently and were unable to take our 2 dogs with us. This is not normal for us, it was just unavoidable in this situation. When we returned home, I had a voicemail from animal control about the dogs barking excessively and to call them because this was "an on-going issue with us"...first I've heard of it. Then about a week later we get a note in the mailbox on Sunday from our neighbor saying our dogs were barking all night and currently barking and very disturbing, please control them. The neighbor left his name and number. On Monday, the next day, we got a letter from our County about a complaint of excessive animal noise. The county informed us, the complainant requested and was given a log book to document occurrences.

Now I'm at a loss. We live in an area where everyone is on 4 or more acres, zoned for ANYTHING you want to do. People have donkeys, chickens, ducks, geese, emus, peacocks, and most importantly guard dogs. So noise throughout the day and night is common. You can hear the coyotes howling at night and in the am, they are loud! And here's the kicker: My husband works from home. So aside from us leaving to run errands, the dogs aren't left alone and are in fact in the house all night and only outside when my husband is outside.

When we first moved in, our first and most important task was to make sure the fence was sound and we ran a hotwire. While doing this, the complaining neighbor came out to say hi. This was our first meeting. He proceeded to tell us that he routinely pulled up the fence to drag out the debris that collected on the fence line. He did this, he informed us,  because county regulations state that a fence cannot impede the free flow of water, and that sticks building up look bad. Of course we gave him a very stern look, and he then assured us that he wouldn't be a problem for us. All we told him was, we just want to be left alone, that's why we moved out here.

Fastfoward to all this business with complaints being filed. We never touched base with anyone. That wasn't my personal decision, but that was the family decision: just keep your mouth shut and let it blow over.  This weekend we got rain overnight. So as is normal for us, we got up, ate a nice breakfast, fed the animals and walked the fence line to check it. This neighbor had pulled up our fence, AND took the stakes out that held the fence in place. His VERY obvious footprints went from his property to our fence line. So, we called the Sheriff. We let the officer know the situation about the complaints, etc. Obviously, the Sheriff can't do anything substantial. He went over there and talked to him, took pictures etc.

But here's the thing: Now, I'm afraid to develop our land. We have wonderful natural swales that have been made by creosote bushes. We have some very useful washes that run across our property that we can use.  But I'm legitimately afraid that we will be harassed because this guy thinks its ok to impose his will on us and nit pick and not come to us as neighbors. He put that note in our mailbox AFTER he made the complaint to make it look like he was trying to meet us half way.
I'm angry and I want to "get back" at him, but thats childish, but what do you do? How do you just remain apathetic in rebellion? We have an open investigation that may result in a hearing where we have to plead our case to the County Development Board.

Has anyone else dealt with neighbors that were difficult? We have taken measures to make sure the dogs are never on the back half of the property, but we didn't do it because of the threat of government, we did it to make the situation go away. Our livestock is on the back half, and we want the dogs patrolling to keep away anything that gets through the hotwire.

Frustrated. Any advice on this situation would be much appreciated. We're not jerks, we're happy to work with our neighbors, but how do you do that when your neighbor just complains to multiple agencies instead of coming to you? We plan to live here for at least a couple decades, so I would rather we have good relationships with people around us.

[Morning Sunshine]

thinking about this.  I don't have anything yet. 

[jerseyboy]

The first thing that comes to mind is to collect evidence of your compliance with the rules. Get a surveillance camera that also collects audio and also keep a book about when the coyotes howl. Be prepared to go into court with evidence that he is lying.

Also, post the exact ordinance that he thinks you are violating. I once lived in a place that any continuous barking over 5 minutes was a reason for the government to take your animals. Once I found that out we left and are never going back.

What is your property zoned? In New Jersey, if you are zoned in a way that let's you keep animals then there are specific laws (right to farm) that say animal noises have to be accepted by your neighbors. However, you must be on 5 acres or more for that to kick in.

So, post the law here that he says you are violating, post your zoning, and make sure that the law applies to your zone (i.e. that your right to farm laws do not trump the other ordinance).  And start collecting data on your compliance. If he is the only one with data to present in court he will win.

Jerseyboy

[surfivor]

county regulations state that a fence cannot impede the free flow of water, and that sticks building up look bad

 Is there a stream, seasonal stream or are we talking about little puddles or something ? I don't know anything about this sort of thing or what is going on. He said sticks are piling up because water flowed there. Some laws are obviously ambiguous .. I can't really decipher if your neighbor is actually concerned about something or if he just wants to be difficult ..

 The other thing is the law says a fence can't block flowing water .. presumably that may mean they don't want you creating your own little pond or diverting the flow of a stream say hundreds of yards off it's normal course or something by building a fence. But your neighbor says "sticks are piling up that look bad". How big a pile of sticks ? Again, it's not clear if there is any real water flow or if a few sticks here and there get washed around during heavy rains which if that seems to be the case would sound sort of dumb

 how far from his property is the place where he pulled up the fence ? Is it visible from his side or his house ? How long a section of fence was pulled up by him ?

 Some people might say that if he had a problem with your fence he should have come to you to discuss it rather than take that sort of action by himself

 If you are sure your dogs are not out at night and can't be heard, is it possible that you are just being blamed for random noises in the neighborhood ? Some dogs are barking so he thinks or claims it's your dogs but maybe it's not. How does animal control know it's your dogs ? maybe they have no idea and are just responding to complaints ? Is it possible it's some kind of tactic to throw you off or make it so that you get on the wrong side of the animal control people and govt since you are new to the area ? That way the claims about the water flow get mixed in with all that ..

[fritz_monroe]

All we told him was, we just want to be left alone, that's why we moved out here. 

Could just be the wording of the post, but he may have taken this negatively.  Maybe he decided that he couldn't work with you, so he'd go the way of the county.

What I'd do is go over and talk with him.  I'd say something along the lines of I think that we may have gotten off on the wrong foot and that you want to make sure that you are good neighbors.  That you want to find out exactly what's happening and what you can do to fix it.  That puts you as the people looking to come up with a solution.  If it ever went to court, you can point out in your own notebook that on that day you approached him to find out how to solve the issue and what you came up with.

I also agree that you need to keep your own evidence notebook.

As for wanting to be left alone, I fully understand that.  My wife and I want to be left alone for the most part.  However, you will always have neighbors that you have to deal with.

When you get the chance, please stop over at the Intro Thread and introduce yourself.

[CPT Morgan]

Don't take this wrong, just keeping it real.....  Remember that your definition of freedom isn't always the same as your neighbors.  Whether or not your neighbor(s) is being realistic or not, you don't expect to be able to change him do you?

The fact that your dogs may or may not bark really has nothing to do with other livestock and/or wildlife.  Nobody can stop coyotes from howling and your neighbor may not find anything wrong with the sounds of livestock.  As for other neighborhood dogs, he may be complaining about those too.  In reality, nobody likes a barking dog.  Make an effort to train your dog to bark only for security reasons, using a bark collar if necessary.

As for the fence, if it shares a property line then he in turn shares the maintenance.  His definition of maintenance is obliviously different from yours.  However, he can't take things (stakes) that belong to you.  It sounds like you are willing to sacrifice a portion of your property in an effort to deal with this, so I would simply build another fence in-set on to your property that he can't reach.  That said, I would continue to maintain the area between the two fences, so that area could not be claimed by your neighbor at some point. 

Hopefully at some point the guy will lay off and you can find common ground and become friends.

[nkawtg]

Sorry, I'm not with you on this issue.
6,000 sq ft lot or 5 acres, barking dogs are a nuisance.
We have a dog like most people, and we go to great lengths to keep the barking to a minimum.
We keep our dog indoors, no doggy door for her.
We let her out for potty breaks, and walks.
Left to her own, she would bark at anything she hears.

[Carl]

Melatonin will go a long way towards calming an excitable pet ,without putting him in a sleepy mood.

Maybe the grumpy neighbor should have some too.

[Dredrum]

Get your lot surveyed if it hasn't been. Once the lot line is established, put in the tallest sturdiest fence you can on your side of the line. Good fences make for good neighbors.

[xxdabroxx]

Good fences are the best neighbors. 

[Greyghost]

Thank you all for your suggestions and advice!

Just for some clarification on some replies: We live in Southern Arizona, we get rain 2x year for the most part. We have what we call in Arizona a small wash. Without getting too technical for those not familiar with the desert, the area surrounding and in our property is known as a bajada. What that means in terms of how water flows across our land is that when we get "a lot" of rain, it sheets across the land instead of percolating down, creating several drainage and wash systems. The largest wash on our property, which is the one in question, has a channel cut of about 3.5ft at its deepest, but tapers down dramatically as it reaches the fence. When it rains, that little wash really flows and picks up all kinds of sticks and debris. We know this and regularly clear the debris from the line because we don't want that hotwire shorting out. So it bugs us that he feels the need to touch our fence.

In addition, our fence is actually backset about 18" from the property line, so technically, he has to cross onto our property to tamper with our property, its NOT a shared fence.

The Sheriff told us that they could not do anything unless they caught him, or we had video. So, up went the trail cams yesterday. If there is another issue, we will have it on tape.

I agree--I HATE barking dogs. I can hear other neighbors dogs throughout the day. And that's what i'm really concerned about since they gave  him a log book, I'm walking on egg shells. I'm totally wiling to exclude the dogs from the back half 90% of the time, or as much as possible. We do have a bark collar, which is currently in use. I will think about how he views liberty as opposed to me, I don't want to be a jerk. I just want him to treat me like a reasonable person. And, yes, maybe we did get off on the wrong foot.

I agree, we should go over there and try to smooth things over. We don't plan on moving and I don't want bad blood between my neighbors and I. I  do believe that your neighbors are important to long term happiness and an extra resource we may be able utilize. Convincing my husband is another matter, so I've already planted that seed in his brain, and hopefully he comes around.

Many people have referenced laws, and going to court. I'd like to make a distinction. This is code enforcement. These are not "laws" these are "rules" and there are laws governing the enforcement of those rules, but these are rules not laws, and that to me is important. The "court" we would go to is one step up from arbitration. Its not a circuit, town or county court. Its somewhere in between. So I'm having a lot of trouble recognizing the authority that this body has over us.

Being left alone, is mostly in regards to overzealous county code enforcement. This is my biggest concern. Pima County is very tyrannical. I have been personally told by a representative of Pima County code enforcement, that "the codes don't tell you what you CAN'T DO, they tell you what you CAN DO." I have seen code enforcement impose leans on people properties because the property owner cleared out packrat nests and someone complained they changed the grade of the land. Pima County forced them to hire a landscape designer to revegetate their property. Even at wholesale costs, the amount of plants those people had to plant was over $2000, not including the labor of actually planting, irrigating and the designer. I witnessed this happen to 3 different individuals. They laid down and took it instead of appealing to our local legislators. So I'm VERY concerned about developing the natural swales on our property. I want to use that large wash and divert some of the water so that it flows through the swales we develop. That could be construed as changing the grade of the land. However, it would benefit this neighbor, as he is downstream. If we divert that water for irrigation on our land, the water won't sheet across their road and erode it, the water will move through the water table underground. If we are able to speak to him face to face, I would explain this permaculture principle. I just feel irked that I have to justify my actions on MY land. Its not deleterious to anyone, its actually beneficial.

Let me make this clear: this is the desert. This is a neighborhood in the desert. There is VERY little vegetation naturally. Most people don't even have fenced property. Everyone has a well and 200 ft or more is common. But for the most part, this is residental. The majority of the people out here that are keeping livestock and gardens are doing it for personal use, IF they do that. However, most people are just living out here in double-wide trailers. Its not fancy. Theres no HOA, most people out here don't know what that is.

I really appreciate all of your replies, as I continue to mull this over. I'm really leaning toward taking the highest road possible, and make a "mea culpa", go over there and talk to them. Maybe we did get off on the wrong foot. I don't want future issues, I just want to raise my family and live my life in the way I see fit. I'll head over to the Front Porch shortly, gotta finish up dinner first 

Thank you all again!

[surfivor]

the water will move through the water table underground. If we are able to speak to him face to face, If we are able to speak to him face to face, I would explain this permaculture principle.

I might be tempted to wait on that until you get to know the person fairly well. I feel like most people are not interested in permaculture or it's ideas ..

[RitaRose1945]

It may also be an issue of you being city folk and him being there for a very long time.  There's a lot of resentment, especially in the past decade or so, over people moving to the rural areas from the city, driving up prices in places where jobs are scarce, and not having the skills or knowledge to properly care for their property. 


I'm not saying that's you at all, in fact it sounds like quite the opposite.  I'm just saying that he may be thinking that's the case.


His reaction to the fence may be a combination of resentment over his perception of who you are and the belief that you really don't know how to care for your property, so he thinks he's going to have to be the one that clears the buildup from where the wash runs through it.  Again, it sounds like you're willing and capable when it comes to this, but he may not know that, and is annoyed that an issue was created that he believes he has to fix whenever it rains.  I'm in the desert too, and I know that people from other areas often have no clue just how powerful that water can be, especially during the summer when it's monsoon season. He's probably thinking you're like that.


The dogs?  It sounds like all barking is being attributed to your dogs.  In spite of their shared genetics, coyotes don't normally sound like domestic dogs at all.  Maybe kind of close to huskies when they talk or howl, but I've never heard a coyote bark.  Five acres isn't much when it comes to quieter rural areas.  Sound travels, especially when there isn't much as far as vegetation to block it.  At night, I can hear the train (not the train whistle, just the sound of the wheels on the tracks) when I'm indoors, on the far side of my house with the windows and doors all closed, and I'm two miles away in a suburban area.  So what he's attributing to your dogs could be dogs as much as a mile away.  I'm not sure how you fight that other than cameras showing your dogs weren't even outside during the times he complains about.  But it sucks to have surveillance all over your property to prove you're not doing anything wrong.


I would do two things - if there are any other neighbors around that seem friendly and reasonable, get to know them and see what they think.  Also, talk to the man, admit that you might have gotten off on the wrong foot with him, and start talking about subjects that let him know you're not just city folk that got a wild hair about moving to the sticks and being a farmer or something - what your goals are and that you know what you're doing.  And it always helps a relationship to take any advice that is offered.  It gives people a stake in your success, which means they now want things to go right for you too.

[CPT Morgan]

I really appreciate all of your replies, as I continue to mull this over. I'm really leaning toward taking the highest road possible, and make a "mea culpa", go over there and talk to them. Maybe we did get off on the wrong foot. I don't want future issues, I just want to raise my family and live my life in the way I see fit. I'll head over to the Front Porch shortly, gotta finish up dinner first 

This ^^^^

[endurance]

I suspect the dogs were a bad step in the wrong direction. I live on 2.5 acres and I have a great relationship I've nurtured over the years with my neighbors, but they've flat out told me that if my dogs bark at night, they're calling the cops. In their case, they don't care if they bark when a jogger goes by on the street during the day, but they like to sleep with their windows open and that's just not possible with barking dogs Nextdoor.

Actively do what you can to mend bridges. Get to know them. Invite them over for a BBQ and break bread with them. This probably should have been done long before now. In the country, the perception is you are new here, therefore, you're an intruder into their open space until you become a neighbor. Be neighborly and most of the time, they'll reciprocate.

[notmyrealname]

The issue here is that your neighbor seems willing to call code compliance with no neighborly discussion.  Now you have escalated and called the police out there.  It is important to try to de-escalate this and make peace so that these little things don't become bigger things over time.   Do not call the police over the fence.  You have to work this out person to person.  It's just a fence.  Tell him you will take care of the fence.  If he comes on your property and clears the fence, are you harmed?   You can tell him please don't touch the stakes because (reason), livestock?   your property?   Take down the trail cams.  You are making this a battle, and you don't want a neighbor war over some sticks, you don't.

Tell him you are controlling the dogs.  Were your dogs outside, unmonitored for 2 days?  Well that's probably not gonna work from now on.

Knowing your county is strict, you have to look like you are doing everything just right, or very hidden.  Be careful out there.  Do not become "that house" with authorities because they could end up being out to get you.   

[Carl]

It sounds like your neighbor is a lonely,grumpy,old man...could be me...

[d3nni5]

I'll be honest, I haven't read the whole thread....way too much info.   It's obvious you are upset about this.   My $.02 for what it is worth.....

Extend the olive branch and let them know you hear his concerns.   Let everything that has transpired to this point be in the past.   Take the high road, for now.   Let him know and see you are willing and wanting to be a good neighbor too.

From this point forward, if he comes on your property with the intent to damage your fence (or anything else)...call the sheriff.    Period.   Set those boundaries early, or he'll feel empowered to walk over you anytime he pleases.  It is your land, it is your property.   I disagree with the "city vs country" sort of approach to this.   What's yours is yours.   You have a right to protect it.   His belief on how you care for your property is NONE OF HIS BUSINESS.

After you establish you are willing to be civil and compromising....and he doesn't meet you half way....do whatever is legally allowed to maintain your ground.  He has to get over it.   

We all work too hard in life to get what little is truly ours.   Property, above all else, is your castle, your haven, your place in this world. 

[CPT Morgan]

We all work too hard in life to get what little is truly ours.   Property, above all else, is your castle, your haven, your place in this world.

But unfortunately that doesn't include barking dogs.

[d3nni5]

But unfortunately that doesn't include barking dogs.

As long as they are not breaking any noise ordinances, technically they can bark all they want.    That doesn't help in the "compromise"  department, but they have more of a right to bark than he has to come on the property and destroy property.

[CPT Morgan]

As long as they are not breaking any noise ordinances, technically they can bark all they want.    That doesn't help in the "compromise"  department, but they have more of a right to bark than he has to come on the property and destroy property.

True, but if you walk through life thinking only of yourself and how "the rules" back you up, you had better check-out a little further (no neighbors), so that you don't find yourself constantly fighting with others and/or in and out of court, whether you win the argument or not.

[d3nni5]

True, but if you walk through life thinking only of yourself and how "the rules" back you up, you had better check-out a little further (no neighbors), so that you don't find yourself constantly fighting with others and/or in and out of court, whether you win the argument or not.

I agree that compromise is the right way here.   Be a good neighbor, do unto others, it is just the right thing to do.   But I'm not willing to sacrifice my Liberty because of an asshat of a neighbor.   Nor should anyone else.  Draw the line, and set that precedent early.  We all have that right and should never, ever give it up.

[CPT Morgan]

I agree that compromise is the right way here.   Be a good neighbor, do unto others, it is just the right thing to do.   But I'm not willing to sacrifice my Liberty because of an asshat of a neighbor.   Nor should anyone else.  Draw the line, and set that precedent early.  We all have that right and should never, ever give it up.

I guess I don't really see where this guy was truly an "asshat".  And drawing a line is not much of a compromise. 

I personally hate dogs that bark compulsively and I don't have a problem with a neighbor that helps clean a common boundary.  The property line is obviously where this went wrong for most, but I think that would also be the easiest to fix.   

[xxdabroxx]

I'd certainly be pretty damn mad if my neighbor came on my property and pulled my fence apart.  Then add on top of that getting the county on my back for dogs barking that may or may not be mine.  OP said dogs are inside at night so it shouldn't be them barking at night.  If they are out and barking at night I would be every bit as mad as the neighbor. 

[CPT Morgan]

I'd certainly be pretty damn mad if my neighbor came on my property and pulled my fence apart.  Then add on top of that getting the county on my back for dogs barking that may or may not be mine.  OP said dogs are inside at night so it shouldn't be them barking at night.  If they are out and barking at night I would be every bit as mad as the neighbor.

Agreed and that is why cooler heads need to prevail here.  There should be an easy fix, especially given that it didn't sound to me like the neighbor "came on my property and pulled my fence apart".  But I could be wrong.

[d3nni5]

Agreed and that is why cooler heads need to prevail here.  There should be an easy fix, especially given that it didn't sound to me like the neighbor "came on my property and pulled my fence apart".  But I could be wrong.

Maybe I'm missing something here.   I'll go back and read this all closer when I have more time later.   I think the OP could have been more curt in describing the problem.   I thought I read that is EXACTLY what the neighbor did....came onto her property and pulled up her fence, because he was mad about the barking dogs.    If that is the case, he is the one not compromising, and she shouldn't tolerate it.   

[archer]

put your dogs in an of site kennel for a week (keep your receipts), then walk around our property 'barking' at random times during the day/night. when he calls the cops, tell them the dogs are offsite and you dont know where the barking is coming  from.

[CPT Morgan]

Maybe I'm missing something here.   I'll go back and read this all closer when I have more time later.   I think the OP could have been more curt in describing the problem.   I thought I read that is EXACTLY what the neighbor did....came onto her property and pulled up her fence, because he was mad about the barking dogs.    If that is the case, he is the one not compromising, and she shouldn't tolerate it.

Of course they shouldn't tolerate it, but there is a process one uses when you want/need to get along with neighbors.  And a common fence is a common fence, even if it's 18" on one side or the other.  When no other kind of barrier exists.  That's why I suggested two fences if they couldn't find common ground.

[xxdabroxx]

That's not a shared fence though that is on the property line.  If it is ON my property only it is MY fence you nobody but me or my authorized agents have authority to touch my fence.  He has the right to put up his own fence on his property but no right to touch your fence. 

With your line of thinking a fence 10' onto ones own property with a landscape border to the property line could be torn down by an angry neighbor because they feel like it.  Sorry, that's just not the way it works.  Fence has to be on the property line for him to have any say in it so long as it complies with the local building codes. 

[CPT Morgan]

With your line of thinking a fence 10' onto ones own property with a landscape border to the property line could be torn down by an angry neighbor because they feel like it.  Sorry, that's just not the way it works.  Fence has to be on the property line for him to have any say in it so long as it complies with the local building codes.

I said "when no other kind of barrier exists".  There have been property disputes all over America where people lost property in court due to a permanent fence being located off the actual property line.  And it sounded like the fence was there before these people moved in and precedence was already established for the neighbor doing clean-up....  Just saying, lot of things to consider here.