Armory, Self Defense, And EDC > The Airgun Board

Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?

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flippydidit:
Blademan,

You did completely miss my sarcasm AS IT WAS INTENDED.  You didn't miss that I used it.  So I will clarify why I think purchasing a hundred trained weasels to assault a home intruder is more viable than an air gun.

The original poster's own words:


--- Quote ---"I am just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on airguns, specifically replicas being used as self defense.

I suspect that a lot of the power and control that can be derived from a gun comes before a round is left off.  Is it foolish to try to bluff with an airgun?

Obviously the real thing is better, but if the real thing couldn't be easily obtained, or wasn't wanted for whatever reason, could someone be secure with an airgun?"
--- End quote ---

Nowhere in the post does this person ask about SHOOTING the air gun to defend themselves.  The OP wants to know the value of an air gun to secure their home by using it to bluff an intruder into thinking it's the real thing.


--- Quote ---I am just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on airguns, specifically replicas being used as self defense.
--- End quote ---

Whether or not you choose to take some of the OP and run with your own ideas is fine with me blademan.  Just try to understand that we were answering the OP's question.  Not taking some of the question and then extrapolating some fantastical plan about how we're going to fend off an armed home invasion with a pellet rifle.
 

--- Quote ---Go get some actual training in dynamic tactical home defense and see if anyone in that group would pick a chain saw.
--- End quote ---

For your information, I don't attend any "dynamic tactical home defense" training schools for a few reasons.  First, I think if you're going to instruct something, you should have actually done it.  So for this school to work for me, it would have to be instructed by someone who has actually fought off a home invasion.  Even if there was such a "tactical" school, I also doubt if anyone in that group would pick up a pellet rifle either.

If your choice is to advise the OP on how to make home defense viable with a high powered air rifle, then you'll get no complaints from me.  There are many people in the world for whom that may be their only lethal choice.  Just don't think that I'm going to stop answering silly questions with silly answers when someone wants to know if an air rifle should be used to bluff a potentially life threatening armed intruder.

My professions as a soldier and gunsmith have given me quite a bit of experience with weapon systems of all kinds.  Your assumption that I know nothing about high powered air rifles is unfounded and inaccurate.  I know quite a bit about them, and even use them myself.  However, I decided to be a gunsmith.  Not an air rifle smith.  Do you need to guess why?

blademan:
Flippy,
   I apologize, I wasn't trying to insult you. And I did understand both that you were using sarcasm and why. I also understood the tone of the OP's question. And I think that if you look at my posts you will see that I answered the part about using the airgun or any gun as a a bluff. The answer is absolutely not. But since he asked about general self defense, I answered that too. Home defense is self defense in the home, so since that's the best use of air rifles as self defense, I confined my answer to that.
   The point is that while everyone was giving sarcastic and really unrealistic and unsafe answers, no one really gave a good answer as to what to use instead. The best answer was a basball bat and or pepper spray. Those are fine as long as the dude breaking in doesn't have a gun. You have to take a basball bat and to some extent pepper spray to the bad guy for it to work. It seems like people here are answering the question from the point of view of using a Red Ryder to try to get someone to leave. I specifically mentioned air rifles capable of lethal force because using anything less is usually a mistake.
  I am not saying they are as lethal or effective as a real gun, THEY ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN A BASEBALL BAT FROM ALL RANGES in which either are effective.
      I do have a problem with answering the poster's question with useless and asinine responses, they are pointless and rude. If the guy was being purposely stupid, the that's cool give him all the crap you want, I'll help. But since this guy was simply naïve, I think its wrong to smart off to him and not offer any actual help. For the record, I agree that using a replica firearm to try to control a situation is STUPID. I will agree with that all day.
   Point out how I went off on a fantastical idea of how I was going to repel an armed home invasion. I don't think I was being fantastical at all. If you take a baseball bat to a gun fight, you will probably end up just as dead as the guy bringing a knife to one. At least my option gives you the option to fight from behind cover and from a distance.
   I take it then flippy that you haven't used lethal force to repel a home invasion? Neither haven't and I hope I never do. That experience isn't necessary to answer this question. Its a matter or logic, will this work, will it work better than the other options over a broader range of scenarios? The answer to both questions is yes.
   Flippy I think you are wrong, if you gave a tactical firearms instructor the choice between defending his home with a knife, baseball bat, pepper spray, asp baton, bow and arrow, and a high power air rifle capable of ending someone's life, I bet that the guy is going to choose the projectile weapon most similar in form and function to a real gun. It probably won't be the only tool he chooses but the again swat teams carry mor than just guns don't they.  I mean maybe we should suggest that this guy use flashbang grenades to defend his home. They would work. They are neither legal or practical. Air rifles are usually both.
    I say this because most of the time it doesn't pay off to take two or three technological steps backward when all you have to take is one. I could be wrong here. I just think that being able to take a bad guy down from a distance is better than having to get up close and personal.
   And flippy you didn't really defend your position, either by pointing out flaws in mine or by actually suggesting an alternative. All you did was use sarcasm again when it was neither warranted or effective.  There is no reason actual resason you can give that the weapons I suggested would not work for the purpose given as a rule. There are only preferences. I prefer to have something that is the most like a firearm in the absence of a firearm. You may prefer to go up against a guy who has a gun with a bat or whatever else, I leave you to you preferences.
   The high power, large caliber repeating or non repeating air rifle is a good home defense option in the absence of real guns. Is it the only thing one should rely on?
No, neither is a real gun. Its not even the best solution in some situations.
Each situation has its own set of solutions. Same with a real gun.
    Is having to use an air rifle to defend my home and or life with a situation I would want to be in? No. Would I use it if that was what was available to me? Yes. That is my point.
   I understand and agree with your comment about why you became a gun smith. But then again, we are dealing with a situation in which a real gun isn't an option.
   Anyway, there's not much more new stuff to say on this topic, I answered the question realistically and some other people chose to take a less mature stance.

   In review:
1. The RIGHT high powered large caliber air rifle (not pistol) is a good PART of a home defense SYSTEM in the absence of firearms
2. You should train with your air rifle to defend your home with your air rifle the same as you would with a real gun.
3. Develop a home defense system that is redundant and multifaceted. Implement, maintain, and train with this system.
4. If at all possible get a real gun, air guns are not optimal home defense tools, but will work if the real thing isn't available.
5. The right air rifle is pretty expensive. You have to have hand pump, a scuba tank (at least one) and the hoses and fittings to fill the rifle's reservoir. These are not included in the price of the rifle usually. This makes the use of the air rifle more complicated, so this means training is very vital.

    I got nothing else on this topic and as the OP hasn't participated since the original post, o don't see any reason to keep arguing. I wast just trying to help someone who was obviously naïve about self defense.

livinitup0:
"THEY ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN A BASEBALL BAT FROM ALL RANGES in which either are effective."

highly subjective imo. my effective striking range is about 3000x more with a baseball bat than it is with a bb gun. that being said theres a trade-off with having to be close range with a bat. The trade off with your preferred weapon is that you have an effective striking range the size of a pea.....if the weapon even works properly.

it comes down to training and picking a weapon thats comfortable for you....We get it....for you that weapon is a bb gun. That doesnt mean its "better" than anything other than a gun for the rest of us.

blademan:
 Livinitup,
   I am NOT talking about a red ryder bb gun. If you want to understand what I am talking about go look up the benjamin sheridan rogue epcp air rifle in .357 go look up the say yang hunting air rifles in 9mm .45 and .50 cal. Do you understand that livinitup, FIFTY CALIBER!!!! THE SAME AS A DESERT EAGLE!!!! No its not as powerful, but it is the same caliber and it would kill an intruder. Maybe not with the first shot. But neither do all hand guns or rifles.
 Again I am not talking about a bb gun. These are comprable to revolutionary era smooth bore muskets in power with the added benefit of rifling and modern breech loading design and in some cases a magazine fed system. They shoot bullets, not pellets of bbs. Just because they don't use powder and don't go bang, (actually they do bang) doesn't mean they don't have power.
  So in home defense ranges, this is a better alternative than a baseball bat because it will kill an intruder from across your house. Short of throwing your bat or hittung balls at someone with it, you can't do that with a bat. I mean what is unclear here? There are air rifles out there of a power and configuration that while not as good as a real gun are better than most other non projectile weapons for home defense in most situations.

   They are better than most other non projectile weapons for the same reason than a real gun is. The allow you to deliver threat ending power beyond your immediate physical reach hopefully from behind cover in a strategically advantageous position.
   
    So if you would like to continune to be insulting, at least know what you are talking about. I mean ask yourself this, do you really want to go up against some one whose fighting skill level you do not know, whose level of armament is unknown, probably late at night half asleep, probably in the dark, in CQB? What if he has a buddy you didn't see? I know that I wouldn't. But maybe the concept of a lethal and functioning air gun is too much for you to contemplate in a mature adult fashion. Not only would you want to, is it really the right thing to do? Does it give you the best chance of success or a better chance of success than shooting someone with a lethal weapon from 5-15 yards away? I really don't know why we are still sniping at each other over this subject, I already argeed that we don't agree, that is usually offered by the person who can't win the argument with reason and logic with a person who won't accept bravado, machismo, and emotional agruments as valid points of discussion. I accepted your concession and now you are back taking pot shots at me after you surrendered. That's bad form sir! :P
 And since the range of these air rifles is anywhere from 50 to 100 yards, how long are your arms that your striking range is 3000x greater?  Or was that another failed and unnecessary attempt at sarcasm? Just so you know, I will repeat, I am not speaking about BB guns. They don't shoot BBs. So if you have any real arguments to put forth that are germane and not cheap, ineffective jabs, then do so. Othewise, remain silent. Thanks.

endurance:

--- Quote from: oktheniknow on October 31, 2012, 09:25:48 AM ---I've thought about that for killing squirrels and such. Any suggestions for a good air gun with scope that has no noise for that type of thing?

--- End quote ---
I bought my RWS Model 34 .22 caliber from Airguns of Arizona over the summer when I was having some critter problems in the garden.  At 30' I have 5 round groups that you could cover with a dime.  Beyond 50' accuracy definitely drops off quickly.  You'll need to buy a variety of different pellets when you first get it so you can dial in which pellet works best for your gun.  There is a huge amount of variation and I've found a 21.3gr pellet had the tightest groups in my particular rifle.  Yes, it'll kill squirrels and rabbits, maybe even a skunk, but I wouldn't try it on anything larger or more robust (not coyotes or porcupines).

None of them are silent.  While the sound of the pellet hitting a steel bullet trap is louder than the gun itself, don't expect any modern high power air rifle to be anything close to silent.  I suspect my 10/22 firing CB Caps is slightly quieter than my air rifle, but it's more of a springy sound than a bullet's report, so more socially acceptable for my neighbors.

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