Author Topic: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?  (Read 42154 times)

Offline Amerigo

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Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« on: May 07, 2011, 03:55:17 PM »
I know .22LR is possibly the last caliber you want to be shooting in defense of your home or BOL.  But lets say you are in a SHTF/EOTW situation... would firing rapid bursts of hollow point .22LR be worth anything to defend your domicile?  I've never been shot, but I would think that 10 of those little guys to the chest would make me turn around.  Maybe not though.  ???

The reason I ask is because you could stock up on thousands of .22LR for next to nothing.  I already have a few 25 round mags for my 10/22, and it wouldn't be that much money to stock up on more.  I do have an AR15, but I'd imagine in an EOTW situation I'd run out of .223 long before .22LR.

Offline Roknrandy

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2011, 04:06:11 PM »
It's better than a stick. MANY people have died from the little round, it's probably down around number 7 or 8 on the "guns to have on me when the word ends" gun list but it's there.

Offline CarlD

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2011, 04:07:20 PM »
Yes

Offline Agmundr

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2011, 04:12:52 PM »
I'm a much larger fan of the "one shot one kill" school of thoughts, but I know *I* wouldn't want to be shot by a 22LR!  Everyone needs a good 22 and plenty of ammo for it, especially if the SHTF; great for hunting and, as Roknrandy stated, better than a stick for defensive situations!

Offline NWBowhunter

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2011, 04:30:21 PM »
.22lr to the brain box is a very effective defense. I wouldn't want to be with out it in my SHTF arsenal. The biggest plus is the cost of stock piling ammo.


Offline LdMorgan

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2011, 06:16:19 PM »
.22's have a high spin rate, so when you shoot someone in the head with them they tend to ricochet around inside the skull like a marble being shaken in a tin can.

I saw the x-ray of a deader that took a single .22 short to the temple at close range.

There were seven distinct bullet tracks running through the guy's brain, where the round had bounced back and forth across the inside his head.

The .22 Magnum pistol, BTW, was the #1 favorite assassination choice for organized crime in the British West Indies some years ago. I imagine that load will still do the job.






 

Offline soupbone

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2011, 07:41:06 PM »
Don't forget that in an shtf or eotw scenario, medical help will not be available. Any wound from any bullet would be far more serious than it is now. Remember, 150 years ago, people thought themselves adequately armed with a .31 cal revolver, and after Smith & Wesson's bored through cylinder patent lapsed, look at all of the .22 short / .32 rimfire revolvers made and carried. What is the difference between then and now?

I think the probability of getting shot will weigh heavily on the minds of evil-doers; a .22 with a gazillion rounds available will make a creditable contribution to your safety.

soupbone

Offline joeinwv

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2011, 07:54:28 PM »
Shooting faster is rarely the answer.

Would I feel okay with a 22 as a defensive weapon - sure. Would I feel a hell of a lot better with something else - sure.

My Glock 19 holds 16 rds. Add a spare mag and you have 31 total rounds. I do not anticipate needing to fire anywhere near 31 rounds defending my life in the next 50 years. And if I do need them, I will be glad they are not 22 LR rounds.

Offline benc

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2011, 08:21:09 PM »
There is no argument that a .22 can be lethal but it is not a good stopper.  Trooper Coates was killed by a .22 but he did not die immediately and continued to present a threat to the fat slob that shot him (though unfortunately not a lethal one).

Most bullets are pretty effective in the brain box.  The trick is getting the bullet in there.

As was said above.  It is better than nothing and I don't want to be shot with one.

I don't think it would be wise to depend on just a .22 to protect yourself but I like soupbone's point about a GSW being far more serious in an emergency, SHTF, EOTW situation.

I haven't thought it through completely but it seems like having a .22 to burn a few rounds at people who need to be somewhere else and a more substantial gun to actually stop them might be an effective system.  Having written that I generally think folks should refrain from shooting unless they actually mean it.

If you'll permit me to develop the idea as I write I think you could set it up where you shoot people (who need to be shot) first with the .22 and then if they are not discouraged follow it up with heavier rounds.

All that is with the idea of defending an area.

You wrote about "rapid .22 fire" though.  For a .22 to have a reliably meaningful impact on a target it will need to be more accurate than fast and even if you can shoot with 0.1 second splits you're still just shooting small lead pellets.

However, there is absolutely no reason not to stock up on .22 ammo.  Even if you don't own a .22 it would be good for barter.

A note on the 25 round 10/22 mags.  Have you shot them with the ammo you plan on storing?  They are famously unreliable.  If yours work then great.  Just be sure.  I've heard that Ruger has just introduced their own full capacity banana mags that are supposed to feed well.

http://www.ruger.com/news/2011-04-29b.html

I have no experience with it though so YMMV.

Ben

Offline excaliber

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2011, 10:12:03 PM »
a few points to ponder,
statistically more people have been killed by accident with a .22 than any other gun.

you can carry a butt load of ammo easily, take your pic, 1000 rounds of 22 or 180 rounds of 556 (basic military load) (6 mags)

and you can actually afford a thousand rounds of .22 ammo.

if I was a bad man with a AR, and was looking for food or money and you had a .22,,, I might look for someone else that does not have a .22
if your in anything close to a fair fight, your tactics suck.

I am Iraq vet twice (11B Infantry) been in some bad situations, and something that really didnt cross my mind was how big is the gun that is shooting at me, it's a gun shooting at me, that was all I needed to know.

you are fighting Humans, not lions, you shoot a lion with a 22, he will charge and kill you, you shoot a human, he will stop and seek medical attention (normally)

as you can tell I am a big fan of the 22, I personally went with a 22 MAGNUM

Magnum research 22 magnum semi auto
Leopold 2-7x28 scope
Volquartsen 25 round Magazine
Volquartsen extractor
Extended Mag release
polyurethane bolt stop

and I got a Docter site and am about to mount on top the scope for quick target acquisition, and see if I like it.





Offline TexGuy

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2011, 10:53:53 PM »
.22's have a high spin rate, so when you shoot someone in the head with them they tend to ricochet around inside the skull like a marble being shaken in a tin can.

I'm going to have bad dreams tonight now.


Offline ZenGunFighter

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2011, 09:19:09 AM »
I'm going to have bad dreams tonight now.

.22s rifling rates around around 1 turn in 16".
About the same as most pistols....
Velocities are similar too....

Get a .45. Even if you just hit the badguy in the arm, it will put him down. Hard. :sarcasm:

I just love gun myths...

Will the .22 do? It will if you will.

Stopping humans is a tricky thing. There is physical stopping and psychological stopping.
We understand physical stopping. Disrupt the central nervous system and you have an instant stop. Disrupt the circulatory system and you have a stop sometime in the future. Bad disruption = quicker stop.

Psychological stop means the badguy gives up. Who knows what will cause this? Just pointing a gun at someone can be enough. A warning shot can be enough. a wound can be enough. Then there is the bastard you have to shoot 33 times before he is convinced.
(cops shot a guy 33 times to the torso with 9mm hollow points. He was in the middle of reloading when they put him down with a 12 gauge slug. It took 2 of those... No drugs, no alcohol in his system)

Or there is the guy in DC that took a 12 gauge slug to the left side of his chest. He ran 6 blocks to the hospital...

I don't care what you are using. Expect it to NOT work. Train hard. Make sure you understand anatomy and 'stopping'. Know where to put the bullets, no matter what the angle the subject is to you. Make sure you can put the bullets where they need to go, no matter how exciting things are.

Offline benc

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2011, 03:39:50 PM »
I don't care what you are using. Expect it to NOT work.

That is a great line.  The stuff before and after it make perfect sense but that there is Truth.

Ben

Offline soupbone

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2011, 04:42:22 PM »
"Make sure you understand anatomy and 'stopping'. Know where to put the bullets, no matter what the angle the subject is to you."

Another great line, Zen. Most people who study firearms self defense spend much, if not all of their time studying the mechanics of firearm manipulation rather than terminal balistics or the physiology and psychology of the target. A head shot can be effective, if you can hit the target.

I don't mean that last to be insulting - try tying a balloon to a branch on a breezy day and then trying to hit it, you'll see what I mean. Ever since I've been shooting seriously (since the early '70s), we've been taught to hit center of mass - the best protected part of the body, heavy muscle and bone - not an easy target even with a duty round. And it moves almost as much as the head. A better target area might be the pelvic girdle, mid way between the belly button and the groin. There's not too mich protection there, and a lot of vital stuff close to the surface (Femoral artery, sciatic nerve, etc.) That, and given the propensity of the .22 to bounce around inside stuff.....

Maybe its time to put aside the copy of whatever shooting guru is in at the moment and pick up a copy of Gray's Anatomy....

soupbone

Offline ZenGunFighter

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2011, 04:54:04 PM »


Maybe its time to put aside the copy of whatever shooting guru is in at the moment and pick up a copy of Gray's Anatomy....

soupbone

I was doing some training for the staff of a small private island. One of the students was an ex-cop from Russia. He was with a counter terr unit. We were using targets of actual people, in various presentations. When I looked at the group the Russian shot on this target;

There was a fist sized group at the base of the spine. Everyone else shot the upper torso. I knew that he didn't 'miss'. I asked him about it. "We shoot lower spine. Stops bad guy. Doesn't kill him. We can ask him questions..."

Offline liftsboxes

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2011, 06:58:23 PM »
Crazily enough - we took some time today to talk about home defense with our daughters (10&11).  One of the topics that came up was (they love zombie movies) "Hey Dad! If you and Mom are ever fighting zombies then we can go upstairs and thin them out with our .22's!"

Not the worst idea I've ever heard.

Respect to the kids, they aren't looking for a kill shot every time - just often enough to manage the threat situation.  Volume of fire tactics have worked more than once and have an interesting history. 

Offline LdMorgan

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2011, 08:17:11 PM »
.22s rifling rates around around 1 turn in 16".
About the same as most pistols....
Velocities are similar too....
Quote

You are absolutely right. For the LR, 1 turn in 16" is almost universal.

Rifling for the .22 Short is even slower:1 turn in 12".

Apparently the tendency to ricochet  is due almost exclusively to the light weight of the bullet.

Good to know.



Offline LdMorgan

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2011, 08:27:48 PM »
On the subject of rapid fire, I saw a news video many years ago about a guy that built a .22 chain gun.

It wasn't much larger than a kitchen blender, but when he fired it up it purely chopped down small trees, cleared out the local underbrush, and excavated an earth bank very well!

While putting one round where it ought to go is always good, there is still something to be said for the Firehose System of Ordinance Disposal.

I wonder if they have ever tried building a MetalStorm in .22, and (if so) where can I get one?


Offline Bradbn4

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2011, 08:47:38 PM »

>>"Rifling for the .22 Short is even slower:1 turn in 12"

1 turn in 12" is a faster than 1 turn in 16 - the lighter the bullet often the slower the spin rate.

A 1/7" 223 is good to go on heavy bullets - while a 40 grain bullet does poorly.
A 1/12" 223 in 40 grain is good to go - while the 70 grain one never stabilizes correctly.

If an insufficient twist rate is used, the bullet will begin to yaw and then tumble; this is usually seen as "keyholing", where bullets leave elongated holes in the target as they strike at an angle. Once the bullet starts to yaw, any hope of accuracy is lost, as the bullet will begin to veer off in random directions as it precesses.

Conversely, too-high a rate of twist can also cause problems. The excessive twist can cause accelerated barrel wear, and also induce a very high spin rate which can cause projectile jacket ruptures causing high velocity spin stabilized projectiles to disintegrate in flight. A higher twist than needed can also cause more subtle problems with accuracy: Any inconsistency within the bullet, such as a void that causes an unequal distribution of mass, may be magnified by the spin.

Just because the bullets are small, don't mean anyone wants to be hit by one - and I do thing they have their use in suppressive fire.  And with the cost of 22 - you could afford to put more down range.
 

Offline Patriot:Ex Machina

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2011, 07:09:50 AM »


I don't care what you are using. Expect it to NOT work. Train hard. Make sure you understand anatomy and 'stopping'. Know where to put the bullets, no matter what the angle the subject is to you. Make sure you can put the bullets where they need to go, no matter how exciting things are.
That right there is excellent advice. +1 for you.

Offline joeinwv

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2011, 11:39:40 AM »
Another good / bad aspect of the 22LR is that it just is not very noisy. If I am only going to shoot a few rounds, I do not worry about hearing protection if I am outside in the open.

This is good - because it means the sound doesn't carry, could be mistaken for other noises, draws less attention.

This is bad - because there is a definite awareness when you are in proximity of a high power rifle being fired. Anyone who has been in the woods hunting when someone near by sets of a 30-06, knows how loud and scary unexpected gunshots can be. If I am shooting at someone in my house, loud is good in my book. Make sure there is no doubt in the perps mind that they are receiving gunfire.

Offline BulkAmmo.com

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2011, 07:45:49 PM »
A 22 LR wouldn't be my first choice, but as long as you recognize the firearm that your using and it's limitations it should work. I would prefer to have a centerfire round, but best case is always a bigger bore.

I was thinking about the same thing when I picked up my GSG. 26 rounds, reliable and zero recoil. I would be a bit concerned with over-penetration though.

Offline mangyhyena

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2011, 12:17:30 AM »
Quantity has a quality all its own.  The cost of .22 ammo & rifles allows for some serious quantity.

As for stopping power, strap on a machete or keep a bat handy to dispatch anyone crazy enough barrel through the hail of lead you send forth as they come at you.

Honestly, I don't think BG's want to get shot with any caliber.



Offline soupbone

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2011, 09:04:36 AM »


"As for stopping power, strap on a machete or keep a bat handy to dispatch anyone crazy enough barrel through the hail of lead you send forth as they come at you."

Good point, Mangy - ALWAYS HAVE A "PLAN B". Whether or not you are using a .22 or a 12 ga. And never underestimate the power of the lowly baseball bat - it can be quite a fight stopper, although I prefer something a little more specialized:

http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-555-german-war-hammer.aspx?utm_source=Product_Plus&utm_medium=productsearch&utm_campaign=Product_Plus&

 ;D

soup

Offline mangyhyena

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2011, 09:50:15 AM »

"As for stopping power, strap on a machete or keep a bat handy to dispatch anyone crazy enough barrel through the hail of lead you send forth as they come at you."

Good point, Mangy - ALWAYS HAVE A "PLAN B". Whether or not you are using a .22 or a 12 ga. And never underestimate the power of the lowly baseball bat - it can be quite a fight stopper, although I prefer something a little more specialized:

http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-555-german-war-hammer.aspx?utm_source=Product_Plus&utm_medium=productsearch&utm_campaign=Product_Plus&

I'd rather get shot than get brained with that thing! 

 ;D

soup

Offline donaldj

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2011, 10:47:01 AM »
As the OP stated, this is an EOTW consideration.

Of course, in 'normal' society like now, I'd want high stopping power per hit, not only because of self defense, but because of litigation considerations.

In an EOTW scenario, you don't know what you'll be up against..  Utter and complete desperation on an assailant's part may drive him to greater "resiliency" than he would have if it were in normal society.

In either case, all my firearms instructors have stressed that in an actual gunfight, landing hits on target is VERY hard. You're stressed, moving, pissed, worried, defending your kid, etc etc etc and your "peak training skill level" will not be achieved (unless you're a SEAL?!). Scoring hits, when they happen, had better be as incapacitating as possible.

Don't plan on having superior shot placement than your target
Don't plan on having steadier nerves than your target
Don't plan on having a rate of fire greater than your target

So for defense, don't plan on handicapping yourself with an underpowered round compared to your target's potential resilience.

Offline A Pirate

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2011, 07:35:37 AM »
My two thoughts on this; one if you wonder on lethality of weapons I recommend reading the book Ice Man about one of the NY mobs most prolific hit men who killed with everything but always carried .22 derringers on him. Two the IDF and others field small amounts of .22s to combat troops.

Offline 264Win

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2011, 11:16:55 AM »
I am not against the use of a 22 as a defense weapon, but not my first choice. Any weapon can be used it depends on the will of the person defending and the perseverance of the person attacking. Any weapon is a barrier to put before your attacker, but its effectiveness depends on the situation before you and you must be prepared for anything. Use what you have and be prepared to defend yourself and family, its better than a stick in the eye.   

Offline welshman

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2011, 11:45:50 AM »
I donno i feel that what ever you shoot just take out the knees and you take out the man ,man is not that hard to kill . the nervous system will usually do it for you and so will gut shooting in any caliber .The .22 is a fine weapon any one can use it woman or child if need be

Offline welshman

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Re: Rapid .22 fire as defense... would it be useful?
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2011, 11:47:35 AM »
Check out the new Kel-tec >22 mag pistol with a 30 rd mag