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Episode-736- Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy on Collapse Medicine

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Moonfire:
The Survival Podcast http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com

SERIES:      TSP
EPISODE:   736
DATE:         August 31, 2011
TITLE:        Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy in Collapse Medicine


SOURCE FILE:
http://www.survivalpodcast.net/audio/2011/8-11/epi-00736-doctor-bones-and-nurse-amy-on-collapse-medicine.mp3

FILE ARCHIVE:   
http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/dr-bones-nurse-amy-collapse-medicine

DESCRIPTION:
Today on The Survival Podcast we are joined by Doctor Bones and Nurse Amy to discuss collapse medicine, everything from emergency dental needs, to creative ways to get antibiotics and natural healing.

Dr. Bones was a practicing Board-Certified Fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology as well as a Fellow of the American College of Surgeons for many years.

Recently retired, Dr. Bones is drawing from his experience with the many hurricanes that plague his part of the country to put together a medical strategy for those who find themselves in a collapse situation.

Nurse Amy is a Certified Nurse Midwife and an Advanced Registered Nurse Practitioner for many years.  Also recently retired, Nurse Amy has devoted herself to urban homesteading with an emphasis on growing food and the re-learning of skills no longer commonly seen in a modern stetting.

Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy have a number of common interests that are in sync with the TSP Audience:   gardening, aquaculture, medical, world and U.S. history, and the collection of  medical and history books from The 19th century and earlier.  They maintain an extensive library on many subjects.  Both Nurse Amy and Dr. Bones are master gardeners for the state of Florida.  Nurse Amy has succeeded in having her property declared an official Butterfly  Sanctuary and a Certified Wildlife Habitat by the National Wildlife Federation.

Dr. Bones has taught at local medical and nursing schools and is a member of MENSA.  He has been published in popular preparedness web sites and will have an article in a popular survival magazine later this year.

- Doom and Bloom – (Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy’s Site)
- Doom and Bloom on YouTube

SPONSORS OF THE DAY:
- Members Support Bridgade (MSB)
- TSP Gear Shop
- TSP Copper
- The Berkey Guy
- ShelfReliance

TRANSCRIPTION PROVIDED BY:
Amy, aka Moonfire

Moonfire:
Housekeeping

<intro/housekeeping 0:00 - 4:43>

Moonfire:
Main Show

<4:43>

Jack Spirko: Alright folks, as I said during the introduction segment we have two special guests today. We’re gonna introduce them as Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy. Who are they? Well Dr. Bones was a practicing board-certified fellow of the American College of Obstitri- I can’t even pronounce that word. How do we say that, Dr. Bones?

Dr. Bones: Obstetrics!

Jack Spirko: Obstetrics and Gynecology, as well as a fellow of the American College of Surgeons for many years. He recently retired. Dr. Bones is drawing from his experience with many hurricanes that plagued his part of the country, which I believe is Florida, to put together a medical strategy for those who find themselves in a collapse situation. His wife Nurse Amy is a Certified Nurse Midwife and an Advanced Nurse Practitioner for many years, also recently retired. And Nurse Amy has devoted herself to urban homesteading with an emphasis on growing food and relearning skills that are no longer commonly seen in a modern setting. And these guys have a ton of stuff that just make them really affiliated with us. For one, they’re podcasters and they’ve been doing podcasts on preparedness, and the medical aspects specifically. They had me on as a guest not long ago, I want to have them back on. They’re history buffs, they were telling me about some of their history books. We’ll probably talk a little bit about that today. They’ve got some books that were published in like ’83, and by that I mean like 1883, just great folks, involved with gardening, aquaculture, medical preparedness. Hey Dr. Bones, Nurse Amy welcome to The Survival Podcast.

Dr. Bones: Hey, thanks for having us on!

Nurse Amy: Hey!

Jack Spirko: And you guys have a podcast of your own. It’s called the Doom and Bloom podcast, right?

Dr. Bones: Yeah.

Nurse Amy: Yeah.

Jack Spirko: The Doom and Bloom, I like that. Because there’s the doom and there’s the bloom. Right off the bat, can you tell people where they can find your podcast at?

Dr. Bones: Simple, doomandbloom.net. And we’re on the Prepper Podcast Radio Network every Thursday night live at 9pm eastern, 8 central. And you can reach us by going to prepperpodcast.com.

Nurse Amy: Yes, and I will always post a link to the podcast, which is just real easy to click on if you just go to doomandbloom.net. I’ll always put a little show description and a simple link for you to push to listen to the show.

Jack Spirko: Very cool. And that goes across Blog Talk Radio, right?

Nurse Amy: Yes it does. And a few other-

Dr. Bones: And a few other-

Nurse Amy: Servers.

Dr. Bones: Right, exactly.

Jack Spirko: Cool, cool. Well obviously you guys have this huge medical background, we’ve got not just a nurse but a nurse practitioner and a doctor here. So clearly that’s where you guys come from, along with all the other prepping stuff. But I wanted to have you on for that medical knowledge today. And I guess my first question that I want to ask you – you guys figure out on your end who’s going to answer these as they go or chip in where you want to. But what do you think the average person, who is relatively well-prepared, what do you think are maybe the biggest holes in their medical aspect of preparedness?

Dr. Bones: Well with regards to a collapse situation, I think the difference between knowing what survival medicine is and collapse medicine. Survival medicine is treatment that you render in a situation where standard medical care is not readily available. Now I would this to include medical care that’s rendered during wilderness hikes or ocean voyages or trips to underdeveloped countries. There are doctors, there are hospitals, but not at the time and place that the medical care is required. But the primary goal of this, and most, survival medical training is the evacuation of the ill and injured individual to a modern medical facility. What happens in a collapse when there are no longer modern medical facilities? That’s what I call collapse medicine. In a societal collapse, there is not only no access but there may be no hope of accessing such care in the foreseeable future. So therefore what that means is the buck is going to stop with the people in your group, in your family. And so this fact leads us to make adjustments in our strategy if we’re going to keep our family and our loved ones healthy. What happens when you’re the end of the line, and these are the kinds of strategies that we’re trying to put together for preppers today.

Jack Spirko: And when you look at that, to me that means that we need to have not just like supplies and training but a mindset toward a greater longevity of treatment.

Dr. Bones: Absolutely. You know we started off with hurricane preparedness. There was actually a hurricane coming in our general direction right now, so that certainly comes in handy. But what happens when the power’s down for more than just a few days or even a few weeks? What happens when food is no longer being delivered? You have to have a strategy for what to do. For example, in your medical supplies you wouldn’t think of having, let’s say, a dental extractor, a forceps or an instrument that helps you extract teeth, right? Well because if a hurricane comes, in a few weeks power’s going to be back on, society’s going to be back to normal. But what happens in a societal collapse when that’s not going to happen? Then that dental extractor is going to be one of the most important medical supplies that you’re going to have.

Jack Spirko: Okay, help me out with that now, because how do we perform a dental extraction absent of any type of a sedative? We’re talking about an extremely painful procedure here.

Dr. Bones: You know what? There are some natural remedies that excellent for that. There’s something called oil of cloves, oil of cloves. It’s a natural essential oil. It has something called eugenol in it, and it’s a natural anesthetic and you can apply it to areas, to diseased teeth. And this, along with a swiss army knife and this dental extractor, is actually perfect for removing a tooth. And in some of our shows we’ve actually discussed how to do so.

Nurse Amy: In incredibly gory detail, I might add.

Dr. Bones: But it doesn’t have to be incredibly gory. As a matter of fact, if you’d like to see this on YouTube just go to “Dental Extraction at Mount Everest Base Camp.” If you look up “Dental Extraction at Mount Everest Base Camp” you can actually see it being done exactly as I mentioned it. It takes just a few minutes to do. And you want to know something? Most dental emergencies can be handled, I’d say more than 90% of them, by extraction. Now that’s different from what’s going on now. Now of course we want to save every tooth. But that’s a brand new – believe it or not, that sounds weird – but that’s a brand new philosophy. In the old days, when I mean the old days I’m talking about fifty years ago not Roman times, they treated almost all major dental issues with extraction. And so it will be in a collapse situation.

<11:57>

Jack Spirko: And just to be clear to everybody out there, Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy are not advising you to start extracting your family’s teeth with cloves, a swiss army knives, and a dental extractor today. This is an eventual reality that we may – and hopefully won’t – but may sometime have to face. That’s a unique thing there. What are some other things that you would say not typically thought of. Because like I took combat training lifesaver training in the military. And everything we did was basically a triage. “Does this dude have any chance to make it or not? If he does, what can I do to make him make it until the helicopter gets here to extract him?” help the next guy, and keep shooting back so I don’t get killed while I’m doing this, and that was it. So if the guy has a sucking chest wound, you wrap him in a poncho, try to seal it off, and somebody’s got to extract him. In the types of situations you’re talking about, the helicopter’s not coming, relief’s not coming, and duration is relative as well. Because if I have an injured knee, long duration without treatment might be measured in weeks or months. But if I have a hole in my chest, a long duration becomes relatively short-term. So what’re some other things with that in mind?

Dr. Bones: Well you know, some of these things that could occur in a collapse. When you’re talking about gunshot wounds, we have to go back to the way medicine was 100 years ago or longer. Look at the survival rates in the Civil War from abdominal or chest wounds. You had about, if you were shot in the torso you had about a 2/3 chance that you would not survive that wound. And that could easily be the case, and we have to understand that the way we triage patients in a future collapse is going to be different and we’re going to have to be more realistic in what we can do for people. Now with regards to that particular patient with the sucking chest wound, it can be easily blocked off and you can hope that your patient will wall off that injury and recover. But the chances that he’ll do that are going to be much less than of course a modern situation. By the way, when I start talking about all these issues, we do always do disclaimers that indicate that every strategy that we offer you is to be used only in a post-apocalyptic setting. For goodness sake, if you need a brain transplant, there’s a hospital and a brain surgeon nearby, don’t try to do it yourself.

Jack Spirko: Very cool. And I think another thing about a future collapse situation with bullet wounds that I always think about is we look at survival rates on a Civil War battlefield. And that’s one thing. But these guys were pitching mini balls at each other traveling at about 800 to 1000 feet per second. When we have a medical collapse we won’t have a centerfire rifle collapse at the same time, and the damage done by modern centerfire ammunition - .30 caliber, .308 style ammunition – is much more severe in some ways than a larger caliber, slower-moving mini ball or a round ball. So there’s more damage being done today by modern firearms as well.

Dr. Bones: Oh yeah, the cavitation is bigger now. Of course the mini balls would roll end over end pretty much almost as soon as they got out of the barrel. And so they cause a great deal of damage. That’s why you saw so many amputations. Of course if you had an injury from that kind of ammunition it almost always just shattered the bone and required amputation. In our situation we’ll probably end up having to do more amputations if we no longer have access to modern medical facilities.

<15:53>

Jack Spirko: People look at that as a brutal thing but during the Civil War an amputation, that was state-of-the-art medicine.

Dr. Bones: If you did not do an amputation on someone in that situation within a very short period of time that leg would become what we call gangrenous. It would become infected. Tissue would start dying and essentially you would be rotting. It’s as if that leg had become part of a cadaver or a corpse. And once that gets into your bloodstream it just kills you. So it was either have one less extremity or be dead. And you want to know something? People like to live.

Jack Spirko: <laughs> Yeah, I think most of us like to live. But the other thing that killed a lot of people back then was infection, even during an amputation. And of course modern medicine has become heavily dependent on antibiotics. There’s good in that, there’s bad in that. Going forward one of our biggest risks though, of course, with injuries, even properly treated long-duration would be infections. So how do we address that from that longer term situation; three, six months without help?

Dr. Bones: You know, there’s a basic principle to this that’s going to help improve your chances of surviving. And that is to pay attention to sound sanitation practices. And if you can do that, if you can work on preventative medicine and work on sound sanitation practices, even if you’re not a doctor you’re going to be able to deal with 90% of the issues that are going to occur. When we go back to the Civil War – we lost tens of thousands of soldiers, as many to things like dysentery as we did to traumatic injury. And so anything we can do to make sure that the water that we’re drinking is filtered and is clean is going to greatly increase our chances of survival. Simple things like that. You don’t have to be a physician to be able to improve the chances of your group being successful in a collapse situation. All you need- whoop, Amy wants to say something.

Nurse Amy: Yes. Actually, the point that I would like to address is that before we had all this modern pharmaceutical medications that sit on the shelves we turned to nature. Families that were in areas with no, even a midwife in the community, had relied on passing generations and generations of information to each other about what out in their area could help them. And so we had a vast amount of knowledge about, say, willow bark that has aspirin properties and pain-relieving properties. And so we knew a lot about nature and we lost this because we’ve become reliant on this whole medical structure. And if that goes away, we don’t have our grandparents or even great-grandparents to then reeducate us. So what we need to do now is to educate ourselves. What in nature can help us either prevent or fight, builds up our own immunities systems to fight infections? And there are many things in nature: honey, garlic, golden grape seed extract. There are many, many natural remedies that may not exactly attack the virus or the bacteria but they could enhance your own body. So anything that you can learn from nature would help us succeed if there’s no medical facilities.

<19:50>

Dr. Bones: You know Amy is absolutely right. Garlic has known antibiotic properties. Honey also does. There is a lot of stuff that is out there just in the environment around you that could help you stay healthy in a collapse. And also if you gear some of your gardening – you want to produce food, of course, but if you gear some of your gardening to producing some of these medicinal herbs then you will also have a steady supply of-

Nurse Amy: Medicine! It’s a medicine cabinet in nature. And I have planted over 70 different medicinal plants in my own backyard right now. I have them.

Jack Spirko: And you guys bring up a good point there. Because it’s not even just the exotic stuff; it’s not even really exotic but we think of it as exotic because not everybody’s familiar with like goldenseal, ginseng and stuff like that. I did a series on herbal actions, you know, antibiotics, antimicrobial, all the different actions that we use to describe both medicines and herbal actions. And then I followed that up with a bunch of different herbs that met those criteria that had those actions. And when I realized when I started doing this and I started researching basic culinary herbs that – and I don’t mean the dried up stuff in a little jar on your spice rack that’s been sitting there for three years, but when you grow it in your backyard. When I started looking at things like basil, rosemary, parsley, all these basic herbs that everybody just cooks with all the time there wasn’t a single one of them that didn’t have antiviral, antimicrobial, and antibacterial components to its essential oils and to its other components. And my reasoning was that if we started using this stuff fresh on a daily basis instead of just acutely, we’re actually constantly building those things up. I’ve got a doctor and a nurse practitioner here, so I’d like to bounce something off you that I’ve always said and get your medical opinion on it:  There isn’t a drug in the world that cures a disease; all they do is weaken the infection or whatever it is, whether it’s a virus or a microbe or a pathogen of any kind, weaken it sufficiently so that at some point the body’s immune system is capable of taking over and finishing the job. And if it was anything other than that, then people that are born with suppressed immune systems, you’d just give them drugs and they’d be fine. But those people are very, very susceptible even with drugs because their immune system can’t kick in and do the rest of the job. So everything we do should be about strengthening the immune system in the first place.

Nurse Amy: You are so incredibly right. Prevention is key. And things like chemotherapy and radiation are two of the only things that I would say actually kill cells. Unfortunately they kill all your cells.

Dr. Bones: They kill the good cells as well as the bad.

Nurse Amy: They’re not particular about who they’re killing. So those would be the only two things. But we certainly aren’t going to do radiation/chemotherapy when we get a cold or bronchitis. So you’re absolutely right, it is to weaken that so that your body can then fight it. It’s weakening the enemy so that your army can go in there and win the battle.

Dr. Bones: It’s a tool. It’s not going to be something that is guaranteed. You can’t always cure an illness simply by giving a particular medicine or a particular herb, whether it’s commercially prepared or a natural one. It helps your body work to strengthen itself and to get over the illness itself. Well it’s just another one of the tools that you, as the medical provider for your group, for your family in a collapse, should absolutely take advantage of.

Jack Spirko: Very cool. And here’s the question I get all the time. The big three in preparedness: beans, bullets, and band-aids. And on the band-aids, it’s a hell of a lot more than just band-aids. So I get this question all the time:  What should be in our home medical kids? So what’re some of the items that need to be there and what’re some of the items that you think that people who go out and buy the prepared kit – and I don’t mean the crappy one, but a decent one – need to be supplementing that with that just get overlooked, other than dental extractors and a swiss army knife?

Dr. Bones: Well you know, it’s important to accumulate medical supplies and knowledge that will work in any collapse situation. But one thing that you have to think about is what are you actually expecting to happen? Your preparations should be modified to match the situation that you believe will cause modern medical care to be unavailable. You’re going to need of course a series of medications, either natural or commercially prepared. You’re going to need pain relievers, you’re going to need antibiotics naturally or commercially prepared. You’re going to have to determine what the special needs of your particular group is. Remember, kids have different medical issues than adults, adults have different medical issues than the elderly. So what special needs are you going to have to deal with?

Nurse Amy: Honestly Jack, we could spend about two hours going over that list. And I would love to do that but you would probably get bored of me breathing it.

Jack Spirko: Could you give us your top ten items or something like that, then?

Dr. Bones: Oh, absolutely. Well I would say number one: I think that you need bandages and every single possible type of bandage. You need triangular bandages, you need 4x4 gauzes, you need large pads-

Nurse Amy: Non-stick adhesive pads.

Dr. Bones: Even sanitary napkins that women use for their cycle could be excellent pads. That would be good. You have to remember that in a collapse situation, people that don’t chop wood normally, people that don’t make fires, they’re going to be doing these things, all these things that they’re just not used to. They’re going to get cut, they’re going to get burned, there’s going to be all sorts of stuff that’s going to require dressings. Dressings I think is one of the most important.

Nurse Amy: Including an eye patch. I would include an eye patch.

Jack Spirko: What is your opinion on Israeli Battle Dressings and Quick Clot?

Dr. Bones: Awesome, awesome!

Nurse Amy: That was the next thing on my list.

Dr. Bones: Let’s say that you’re concerned about civil unrest. Obviously you’re going to have to know how to deal with traumatic injury. And so you’re going to want things like the Israeli Battle Dressing, which is great because it’s a pressure dressing. And that’s the main thing when it comes to traumatic wounds, gunshot wounds, things like that. The first thing you’re going to do is you’re going to press on it. You have to put pressure on the wound so you’ll stop it from bleeding. Then you’re going to put bandages on. Then you’re going to press on it again, then you’re going to put more bandages on it and press on it again. So this does both jobs of sopping up blood and providing pressure. So the Israeli Battle Dressing, which comes under various names now, is actually awesome. Plus Quick Clot, Celox, all of these things are awesome.

Nurse Amy: We have them in different sizes, we have them in different strengths.

Dr. Bones: Right. They are so awesome, I think, that I have videos on YouTube that I can direct you to that will show you them taking a pig – now you can’t be squeamish for this one – but they take a pig and they cut one of its major arteries. And then they sit there and watch it bleed for the next two or three minutes. Then they empty some Celox into it and apply pressure and bleeding’s done. So if you’re worried about civil unrest at any point in a collapse situation, you’ve got to have this stuff.

Nurse Amy: Okay, so first lots of bandages. Second, to stop the bleeding; lots of that Celox and Quick Clot. Then I think you would focus on pain relievers. Natural, either herbal or essential oils. You’ve got your Tylenols, your Ibuprofens, your aspirin. You have to remember if somebody in your group is a little older, they should be taking a baby aspirin every day. That’s recommended by cardiologists, if you go see a physician. But that’s the first thing you have to get in their mouth if they start complaining of chest pressure, a baby aspirin right away.

Dr. Bones: Probably one of the few things you’ll be able to do, really, other than CPR or if somebody has a heart attack during a collapse.

Nurse Amy: That’s what people need to understand. There are going to be certain conditions – you don’t want to say it, but insulin-dependent diabetics and heart attacks and severe traumatic injuries – we’re just not going to be able to save. There are just some people that aren’t going to make it because there’s not the hospital facility available.

Jack Spirko: It’s what I call the moving dump truck. And what I mean by that right now is, you’re probably both great at what you do, but if I get hit by a 10-wheeler, you guys are going to go “Aww” and clean up the mess. And the dump truck moves as collapses falls. Things that are relatively treatable today become untreatable tomorrow. And we have to accept the fact that that can happen the same way that we accept the fact that I could be on my way home right now and a Mac truck with  a couple tons of gravel on it <smack> and I’m done. And that becomes more real as support falls. I’ve also heard the number one thing that kills people in a collapse, like a regional collapse, is diarrhea.

<29:55>

Moonfire:
<29:55>

Nurse Amy: Yes.

Dr. Bones: Yes, you’re absolutely right.

Nurse Amy: Again, it’s another Civil War statistic.

Dr. Bones: Right. And people die from dysentery as often as they died by gunshot wounds. Now this is one very important thing to recognize is that if you can’t keep the conditions in your camp or your retreat or your home sanitary and you can’t filter the water, keep the drinking water clean, you are going to absolutely have to deal with this in a collapse situation. And sometimes these things resolve on their own, your immune system kicks in and you get better. But many times you don’t, and so you may have to consider – and I would recommend for every prepper – to have a supply and stockpile of even commercially-prepared antibiotics, even if you’re not into that type of thing. I really feel that it’s important for everyone to have a stockpile of antibiotics. There’s a history channel special called After Armageddon and the father in the family in this collapse scenario was an EMT and he cut himself chopping wood. And he developed a condition known as cellulitis, which is an inflammation infection of the deep tissue under the skin you commonly see with cuts. It went to his bloodstream and because they were out of antibiotics, the medic for that community was out of antibiotics, he died. From something that could very, very, very easily have been taken care of simply by using antibiotics.

Now I will say this, that the reason why my name is Dr. Bones and not my real name is because I say things that are many times against conventional medical wisdom. Of course I’m very much into natural remedies and things like that, but also I’m trying to figure out ways for people to have access to medications that they ordinarily wouldn’t have. And ordinarily you’d have to go to your doctor to get a prescription for an antibiotic. But to prepare for a collapse, you’re not going to get a hundred antibiotics pills from your physician. So what do you do? Well in this circumstance, I tell people to go – and this is only for a post-apocalyptic situation – I tell people to go for certain veterinary antibiotics. Aquarium antibiotics, for example, have as their sole ingredient the antibiotic itself. And it is only ingredient and it comes from the same batches of antibiotics that are made for human use. And it comes in the same dosages as well. This is one way that you can- you can find these online, you can google online, you’ll find them. And this is one way that anybody can have access to this medicine.

Jack Spirko: I would also say that a lot of the –how would you call them, immigrant stores, I guess you would say? - that are highly patronized by Hispanics within the United States and a lot of the small communities and all. They’re not supposed to but in a lot of those situations you’ll find things like Penicillin, Erythromycin, et cetera on their shelves. It’s there.

Dr. Bones: Absolutely. It’s there, it’s available. If you go online and you look up things like, one particular antibiotic is Penicillin is called FishPen, F-I-S-H-hyphen-pen. And it is basically, it is Penicillin. It is Penicillin just like they would give you if you needed Penicillin. So anyone can actually access a stockpile-able amount of antibiotics simply by going online and finding these domestic, you don’t have to get them from Thailand, you don’t have to get them even from Canada, you get them right from the U.S.A.

Jack Spirko: Yeah, and I think another thing is there’s a lot of things that can be done naturally. Like when you mentioned the guy with the leg wound. Kyle Christensen is a chiropractor but also a M.D. suggested that in that very scenario a drawing agent made from things like Calendula and Comfrey and made into an applicable salve using something like beeswax would’ve done a tremendous amount. That very episode you’re talking about he was referencing as well. And that would draw a great deal of infection out. So you have ways you can acquire antibiotics, just official off-the-record methodologies, and then ways that if they’re not acquired, used up, or you don’t have them, there’s also natural remedies to these situations as well. I think one of the biggest things people are lacking today isn’t so much the stuff but the knowledge of how to use the stuff.

Dr. Bones: Yeah, I agree with that 100 percent. The only thing is that’s important to know is a lot of these medications, the commercial medications are most commonly in twice-a-day and four-times-a-day dosages, these things are standard for the grand majority of antibiotics that you’ll find today. But you have to have reference books, you have to have some kind of medical library, even if it’s just a family medicine book, so that you can have an idea of what the right medicine is for the right condition at the right time.

Nurse Amy: P.D.R. Physician’s Desk Reference.

Dr. Bones: Yeah, that’s one book that would be very useful.

Nurse Amy: It’s comprehensive.

Dr. Bones: But it also shows you what the pills actually look like so you know what you actually have.

Jack Spirko: Sure. So and then these things for the aquarium use and all, I guess there’s dosage amounts listed on the packaging so you can convert that to what is a proper dose?

Dr. Bones: Yes.

Nurse Amy: The truth is the capsules come as adult dosages. Like they’re 500 mg or 250 mg. The reason they are adult human dosages is because they’re manufactured in human pharmaceutical manufacturers. They’re strictly transferred in boxes over to these aquarium manufacturers, repackaged with a pretty little fish on it, and sent out to the stores. There are no manufacturers of fish dosage-related antibiotics.

Dr. Bones: Right. There’s nothing in these medicines, Jack, that’re going to make your scales shiny or make your fins longer.

Jack Spirko: It’s not going to make my tail look good?

Nurse Amy: They’re human medications repackaged with a little fish picture in front of them.

Dr. Bones: I’m sure your tail looks just fine as it is, Jack.

Nurse Amy: They’ll come in 250 or 500, which is appropriate for different adults. It depends on your size.

Dr. Bones: 250 is a child’s dosage, I think, and 500 is a standard adult.

Nurse Amy: Well it depends on what you weigh, but yes.

Jack Spirko: What’s the storage life on this stuff? I mean, in general. I know it’s the same, but when we look at antibiotics how long can we look at storing this stuff? Not what the box says cause the box always lies and hedges its bets. And what’re ways we can extend that storage life?

<37:24>

Moonfire:
Nurse Amy: You know it’s funny that you mention that, but Dr. Bones wrote a really nice article for SurvivalBlog last year, actually last July. I think it was July 28th. And it was all about shelf lives. So honey, why don’t you share some of that knowledge? He did intense research.

Dr. Bones: I wrote something called A Doctor’s Thoughts on Antibiotics, Experation Dates and TEOTWAWKI. You can also look it up, I’ve written about it in all sorts of places.

Nurse Amy: He put it on our blog also.

Dr. Bones: Yeah, you can find it on our blog. You’ll find it in Dr. Prepper’s Family Preparedness Handbook, we wrote the medical chapter for that. You’ll find that also.

Nurse Amy: Well it’ll be coming out soon.

Dr. Bones: The 13th edition coming out. Basically, expiration dates are really a bunch of hooey. The truth of the matter is expiration dates are purely the date of which a company, a pharmaceutical company, will guarantee that their medicine is at 100% potency. Now that means that after an expiration date, there’s nothing that says that a medicine suddenly becomes harmful or that it’s suddenly ineffective 100 percent. And if these medicines are in pill or capsule form – pill or capsule form, this is important – you can expect them to last years and years beyond the expiration date. Even the U.S. government has decided that this is the case because they have put together a program called Shelf Life Extension Plan. And they’re doing this because they’ve accumulated so many of these medicines in FEMA, they’ve purchased so many of them, they’ve accumulated so many of them, they are becoming expired. And so they tested more than 30 or 40 medications, many of them antibiotic, and they found that these medicines were at full potency two to ten years after their expiration dates. And the ones that were two years after their expiration dates because they had only been expired for two years when they did the test. And so you can depend, especially if you store them correctly in a dry, cool, dark place, you can expect your antibiotics or other pill/capsule medications to last years beyond the expiration date. As a matter of fact, with Tamiflu the antiviral medication the U.S. government has officially put out a specific OK authorization for you to use Tamiflu for swine flu or other flu pandemics for up to five years after their expiration dates. And that’s the government hedging its bets, and still telling you to use it five years after its expiration date.

Nurse Amy: Now let’s be clear: This is not liquids. This is not insulin. This is not anything that’s been reconstituted like children’s medicines.

Dr. Bones: They don’t last long.

Nurse Amy: This is strictly powdered or capsules or pills.

Jack Spirko: Yeah, in fact I have the actual copy of the study that was sent to me by a listener, the Shelf Life Extension Program where the government basically said “We don’t want to throw all this stuff away.” Just a couple things cited in it: Atropine had an original shelf life of five years, the average shelf life they extended by is five years, ten years total with 100% efficacy. Diazepam, four year stated, five years with the extension program, nine years total shelf life extended. This was a study that was done by the government. I actually think that maybe I got the conspiracy hat on here, maybe it’s just hard to find for one reason or another, but I had Dr. Wilke on, who’s an emergency medical room physician. He’s been doing that for ten years and he cited this and he couldn’t get a copy of it anymore. I found all types of references to it on government websites, but I couldn’t get the actual document. Some listener somewhere tracked it down. So it’s almost like the pharmaceutical companies said “Hey guys, this is all cool and it’s all well that you guys are gonna do this, but we’d appreciate it if maybe you didn’t tell consumers this” or something. But I will publish a PDF of this in conjunction with this episode so people can take a look at it. I don’t know if you guys have that study.

Dr. Bones: Awesome. We don’t have the study because it was removed.

Jack Spirko: I shall send it to you.

Dr. Bones: I was an idiot for not printing it out when I saw it because the next week it was gone.

Nurse Amy: Right. He saw it the second week of July last year. And when he went to write it, like July 26th, 27th, it was gone. Well like you said, you have to have a special password to break in that section.

Dr. Bones: Yeah, you can get to it right now, but you need a special password.

Nurse Amy: Yeah, they want you to sign in and register, which of course they would not let us register.

Jack Spirko: Somebody needs to file a Freedom of Information on that thing because it’s a public study conducted with public dollars and there’s nothing that needs to protect national security there. So I’ll make it available and they can tell me to take it down if they feel like it. We’ll see what happens there. So I’ll send it to you guys as soon as we get off the air today. When I couldn’t find it I was pretty angry about it. But I’ve come to determine what you’re saying is absolutely true, and it’s one I’ve always speculated about but never had any hard proof. My other thought was with these medications, they don’t become dangerous. They either work or work less. The effectiveness of them declines over time, so that’s not like I’m going to give it to you and now you’re going to die. It’s not like giving you an egg that’s twelve years old, then it’s disgusting and you’re going to get salmonella or whatever.

<43:23>

Nurse Amy: Yeah, the only thing I want to mention about that is there’s a myth going around that’s still perpetuated on many, many different prepper websites. And that’s about tetracycline. And honey, why don’t you just mention what has changed about tetracycline that makes it not dangerous anymore? Because everyone will tell you, “Oh you have to throw your tetracycline away.” It’s not true anymore.

Dr. Bones: Yeah, the tetracycline was one of the very few medications that was in pill or capsule form years ago that would actually become toxic to your kidneys if you took it more than a year or so expired. But they changed the preparation now and this is no longer the case and although I don’t think tetracycline is at this point the best antibiotic, it’s not the first antibiotic you should have.

Nurse Amy: Generally it’s not the first one you should purchase. However if you have it and you purchased it in the past few years it’s not going to kill you. It’s not going to kill your kidneys.

Dr. Bones: By the way, the first one I think that people should have if they’re not allergic to penicillin is Amoxicillin, which is perfect for use in the Cellulitis or infected cuts and burns and things like that. Amoxicillin, it’s called Fish-Mox, F-I-S-H-hyphen-Mox in aquarium antibiotics. The 500mg dose I think is called Fish-Mox Forte, which is just the Latin word for strong. This is a good first antibiotic to have in place.

Jack Spirko: Little bit more on the tetracycline myth-busting thing too. Even if when it was technically dangerous, I did some research into it and I found out that there was exactly one person that they could find that conclusively was made ill by expired tetracycline. One. Not ten, not eleven, one.

Nurse Amy: Right.

Dr. Bones: That’s all it takes, Jack.

Nurse Amy: If people don’t listen to anything else that we say during the show, if they can just get that in their heads that tetracycline isn’t going to kill you when passes expiration I will feel so happy. Another thing that I wanted to put on that list you were saying about what we should tell people to get is a suture kit. And I want to preface that with the fact that you should not be sewing up every laceration that occurs. You want to expand on that, honey?

Dr. Bones: Yeah, that’s true. It’s sort-of like the Shakespearian thing – To stitch or not to stitch, that is the question. You’ve got to determine how clean an injury is. Now for example, most gunshot wounds are not going to be clean wounds. They’re going to have pieces of your clothing, you’re going to have dirt. So you’re very rarely going to be stitching up a gunshot wound. Because all you’re going to do is you’re going to stitch in bacteria. And so it’s going to form a horrible infection, going to go right to your bloodstream, it’s going to kill you more than the bullet itself would.

Nurse Amy: Right. You’ll have more harm by walling up that bacteria into the wound.

Dr. Bones: Having said that, learning to suture is no big deal. And as a matter of fact, in the next issue of Survivalist I have an article on suturing and I think in the next one after that I’m going to do a little lab on suturing with photographs and things. You get to see my pretty hands, but that’s about it. But I’ll want to do that because I really think the people should have at least a general idea of what is done to suture.

Jack Spirko: And you could practice this without cutting your friend open. You could go to an Asian market and get some skin-on pork. You can practice suturing that way.

Nurse Amy: That’s what we’ve done with our prepper group. We did a little workshop and we bought pig’s feet for everybody and bought some extra suturing kits and Dr. Bones actually taught a group of people how to suture, including some teenage girls. Who were really good, actually.

Dr. Bones: Sometimes a medic needs a medic.

Nurse Amy: I know. So the things to think about before you’re going to close up a wound. One, how dirty is it? How clean can you get it before you want to close it up? How old is it? If this wound is older than six hours, you already have bacteria that’s multiplying inside of that wound. Do not close it up because, again, you’re just walling it up. Size: If it’s longer than a quarter of an inch and it’s less than six hours and it’s not dirty then you can go ahead and leave it. Open if it’s less than and close it up if it’s more than. It also depends on where it is. If it’s on an elbow then it’s better to close it up; or a knee.

Dr. Bones: Over a joint, yeah.

Nurse Amy: Over a moveable joint.

Dr. Bones: All these things, by the way, all this information you can find at doomandbloom.net. We have over a hundred articles on medical topics that would pertain to survival situations collapse situations. And really go over there. You’re going to see a lot of this stuff explained in much more detail.

Jack Spirko: Absolutely. And we’ll make sure we have links to all of your resources as well. I want to bust another myth today though. And it doesn’t sound like a medical topic but it is because it’s nutritional and I’ve got two medical professionals here to help me with it today. And as much as you guys get frustrated with the tetracycline one, this one has me want to rip my brain through my ears. Every. Single. Time. I talk about small livestock and we talk about rabbit, we have to have people freak out over rabbit starvation. Every single time. Now a couple things with this, and you tell me anywhere I got this wrong. My understanding of rabbit starvation is that people that lived up in the mountains and could get no other source of food whatsoever lived just off of rabbits, didn’t get enough fat, and could become ill and eventually even succumb to illness. But it’s not from the rabbit, the rabbit’s not poisoning you, it’s the lack of fat. When we grow rabbit livestock that rabbit has a hell of a lot more fat in its protein than a rabbit living off acorns in the middle of the mountain in the winter time. So there’s already more fat there. There’s also the fact that if we were living in a collapse situation, that was a primary source of protein, consuming things like the liver, the kidneys, et cetera would give us additional fat. But if we’re eating rabbit, even a lot, if we’re eating anything else, the average American is not going to go and be poisoned by rabbit by not getting enough fat. Because there’s plenty of fat in our diets right now.

Dr. Bones: Right, I agree with you 100 percent.

Nurse Amy: Oh, so do I.

Dr. Bones: Rabbit is such an excellent source of protein. And I really challenge any of your listeners or our listeners to find one food that handles everything. That gives you everything that you need. You have to have more than one item on your diet and maybe that’s what they’re talking about with regards to just eating rabbit. And I know about the rabbit starvation thing but I personally think that it’s so important to have a source of protein.

Nurse Amy: Right. These things are prolific, you can get I think it’s 300 pounds of rabbits starting with one – well obviously a couple.

Jack Spirko: Yeah, you gotta get two. <laughs> Amy, if you have a rabbit that reproduces by itself, I want like ten of them. The permanently fertilized – well Monsanto may give us that one day, the permanently fertilized female rabbit. Anyway, you guys have done a great job with that. I’d like to let people know, though, some of the other stuff you guys do. Because I want people to realize what a kindred spirit you guys are to the community here. Like Amy, you’re real big into gardening and you’re doing stuff with aquaculture now. Tell people about your Tilapia, because there’s another great source of protein and nutrition. And nutrition is important to us medically if we go into a collapse situation. Protein’s harder to replace because you can’t plant a protein seed in the ground and eat it. I guess a bean does that but not the way animal protein does. So what are you doing with these Tilapia?

<51:49>

Nurse Amy: Well I built a couple years ago a pond, an above-ground pond next to my pool cause I was having my pool surface resurfaced and tiled and whatnot. So I said, “Well I have this empty corner over here, so I’ll build a pond.” So I kept some other fish in it. We raised Bettas and we had some goldfish and filled it up with water lilies, which are pretty. December we decided, “Let’s get into Tilapia. Let’s use that pond and raise some Tilapia.” So we ordered 23 purebred Blue Tilapia from a breeder.

Dr. Bones: Which are actually legal to possess in Florida. There are some times of Tilapia that are not.

Nurse Amy: Okay. So they’re legal, we don’t want to break any laws here. And I put them in the pond by themselves, I took everything else out. The liner decided to split a couple weeks ago and I had it made into a concrete pond. Well I had these fish in a 50 gallon – and when the liner busted a few of them died, I ended up with four. Well I turned around one day and this 50 gallon, and there’s about 200 Tilapia fry, which are babies, and now they stayed in the 50 gallon. I put the four remaining living adults back into my now-concrete pond. And they’ve reproduced again. They like warm water, so if you’re going to do aquaponics in a northern area, you need to keep them with a heater or in a climate-controlled, you know you see some of these places that raise Tilapia in greenhouses. But you gotta keep the water warm, they don’t produce any fry under 80 degrees. And they’ll eat just about anything. From greenery, duck weed, to any fish food you provide, we throw in there.

Dr. Bones: The awesome thing about Tilapia for us down here is that they’re an exotic species but they’re not an invasive species. So you’re not eating up the native fish. And it seems that the plants that they’re eating are actually seem to be the invasive plants in the area. So this is an excellent source of protein, they grow like crazy.

Nurse Amy: They grow really fast, they produce like crazy.

Dr. Bones: Right. And we had 200 babies and now we have 200 fingerlings. So they are hardy, they don’t die. They’re not fragile, that’s for sure.

Nurse Amy: Right. From four fish I now have another 400 fish.

Jack Spirko: And I can get people a way –you guys are in Florida, so you’ve got a really great climate for this. But people that live in a place where like, “Okay, the winter I’m going to have to eat them,” or whatever. If you have a pond you can grow these things in, in a single season they grow to plate size. So you could let them grow to plate size. And in the winter, you said you got a 50, 100 gallon tank inside the house, like a regular fish tank. Pick a few breeders, make sure you get some males and some females, bring them inside. And when the cold hits everything that’s big enough to plate, when the cold hits and basically freezes them, net them up, fillet them, freeze them, smoke them, do whatever and then put your breeders back in your pond. You can get a harvest every year. I’m putting in a greenhouse this fall and I just put in a pond. It’s going to hold about 5,000 gallons of water. And I’m really thinking this is an easier way than aquaponics. Because you just let the fish grow, feed them what they need and harvest them once a year. I don’t know if that’s going to work out but as I think about all the things of balancing an aquaponics system versus throwing them in their cement pond like the Beverly Hillbillies and just rock on, right?

Dr. Bones: Totally sustainable.

Nurse Amy: Yeah. Your considerations are filtration, because these things will, how do I say, pollute your water rapidly.

Jack Spirko: Lots of waste. Lots of waste.

Nurse Amy: You need a filtration system for ten times the size of the water you have. Biggest possible filtration you can unless you’re going to use plants that will help absorb the waste.

Dr. Bones: The waste, by the way, you can take some of that water with fish waste and put it in your garden and it will be an excellent source of nutrients.

Nurse Amy: Oh, fantastic. My plants are so happy. So a large filtration system. You need aeration, they need a lot of aeration. You need a lot of air stones. You need water movement, you don’t want stagnant water. So you need to put some pumps in the water on the bottom to circulate the water around.

Jack Spirko: In your particular pond how much water are you holding with your fish?

Nurse Amy: I have about five or six hundred gallons.

Jack Spirko: Okay.

Nurse Amy: It’s not your size.

Dr. Bones: It’s not like yours. You might have enough surface area to have good aeration naturally in your pond.

Jack Spirko: It all depends on the population too. The problem with bigger water is they make more Tilapia. But you know what, if you don’t get real attached to your babies Nurse Amy, you can net some and just throw them right into the garden beds and let them flop around ‘till they stop flipping. And there’s your nitrogen. So you can control populations. And if you have a pump that will pump from the bottom of your pond where all the waste goes, you pump that straight off. The Urban Farming Guys, what they’re going is a cyclone filter, which is like a three stage filter and the water just basically spins around real slowly in each chamber and most of that stuff settles out to the bottom of the cyclone filters and they just open it up and there’s your fertilizer. So there’s lots of ways to skin that cat. Tell us about some of the other things you guys are doing. You guys have a pretty extensive garden as well?

Nurse Amy: Yeah. I’ve been trying to plant a lot of perennials. So I’ve planted a Macadamia, a Cashew. I tried to get a lot of native plants so that I don’t have to worry about them so much. So we’re talking Muscadine grapes, Surinam cherries.

Dr. Bones: Sugarcane.

Nurse Amy: We have sugarcane, which is an unusual thing. We have bananas that are so easy, you just throw a banana plant around here and it just keeps going and going. I have artichokes, I have asparagus. I have pomegranates. And I have the big medicinal garden. We have different kinds of grapes but some of this is experimental too. You don’t know if you’re going to get something. I have very low chill apples called Dorset apples. Oranges. So anyway, the outside I’ve tried to build up perennials so it’s low maintenance but good production.

Dr. Bones: Inside we have cucumbers, melons.

Nurse Amy: Oh, I also have berries. Blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, tayberries, and gooseberries.

Jack Spirko: How much land do you guys have?

Nurse Amy: Oh my gosh, we’re in a suburban neighborhood.

Dr. Bones: We’re in a half acre. We have it planted in such a fashion so that we get the maximum benefit from the smallest amount.

Nurse Amy: Permaculture.

Dr. Bones: And the bottom line is just don’t be chained to your lawn. Get rid of some of that grass.

Nurse Amy: Be willing to get rid of the grass. Oh I have coffee, I have tea. Coffee and tea.

Jack Spirko: Wow.

Dr. Bones: Now you have to remember Jack, that all of this-

Nurse Amy: Oh, star apple!

Dr. Bones: This is an experimental garden. Some of these things are going to take and some of them might not. But this is the time, before things go bad, for everyone to get through that learning curve, to find out what will grow. Find out what you’re good at growing and things like that. Get that garden growing. If you can get that garden growing now then you’re going to have a head start if a collapse occurs.

Nurse Amy: You’ve got to learn your lessons now. And basically what I would tell people: Don’t just think about doing the raised garden beds with your annuals. It’s a two-tier process. You’ve got to get in those perennials as fast as possible because some of them take a few years to give you good production and get them in now. My blackberry bushes cost me two dollars and 95 cents. Well I look in the grocery store and I see what a pint of blackberries are, if I can get one pint of blackberries I have just made back the cost of that plant. And I might get them for fifteen years.

<1:00:19>

Jack Spirko: Absolutely. You might get them for more than fifteen years. I can tell you that on my grandfather’s property that I grew up learning all this stuff on, my dad’s still picking blackberries from blackberry bushes that I picked from when I was a kid that he was picking from when he was a kid, and my grandfather planted before either one of us were ever born. We have current bushes up there like that. This stuff lasts a long time. Think about the plants reproducing themselves. So even if the initial plant you planted dies off, like a blackberry crown expands. So it continues to reproduce them. Fig trees live a thousand years.

Nurse Amy: Fig. I have six different varieties of fig trees.

Jack Spirko: Awesome.

Nurse Amy: Now the reason I buy different varieties – like the Surinam cherries, I have four different varieties – is because I don’t know which one is going to be happy in my yard. Everyone has different soil, we have different climates. Check and see what perennials do well in your area. Go to a local family nursery, don’t go to these big nurseries. I went to a big nursery, you know, Home Such-and-such, and they had blackberries. But the blackberries are from, I think it was Canada or something. It’s going to die. Why do this? So go to your local nurseries, talk to the families, people that have been doing this for years, find out what grows in your yard, and start planting them. Then focus on the raised beds and learn all of those gardening lessons. But get those perennials in. I would say put more money into your perennials than your garden beds.

Jack Spirko: I completely agree.

Nurse Amy: That food is going to be guaranteed, once it’s established, to give you a harvest. And let me tell you, you put your potatoes in, and something comes along and eats them or they rot, you don’t have any food.

Jack Spirko: Blight. Yeah, you get blight on your potatoes and they’re gone. And you can have them like they’re just about to be ready, they’re just about to set and blight hits, and just <smack> and they’re gone. Ask an Irishman, he’ll tell you about the potato famine. And I think the other thing that this makes me think of is I have a lot of people that ask me about seed banks for long-term storage of seeds. That’s fine, but if you’re not, like you said, doing the work now to learn what works. And if you want a seed bank just for when there’s a collapse, then this is the seed bank you need. You need about twenty buckets and fill them up with all different types of dried beans. That way when you can’t grow any, at least you got something to eat because the whole concept that you’re going to pull out a tube of seeds and plant an acre crisis garden once a collapse started, you’re done. You’re going to starve to death before the first seed sprouts. So you’ve got to do this stuff now, I completely agree with you.

And getting regional stuff, like you said the blackberries came from Canada? Well send a Canadian an orange tree from south Florida and see how that works out. So why would we expect it would work the other way around? One of the things I tell people to is not just what the local nurseries tell will grow well and all, but go to wild areas around you. And we all have wild areas. And look what’s growing naturally. If you have blackberries growing naturally then an improved domestic variety of blackberry will do fairly well in your area. You already know you have the right conditions for it. If you have amaranth growing you know it’s going to be a good grain crop for you. You know it’s technically a seed because growing oats or wheat, that’s really difficult on any scale. But if you can grow amaranth and quinoa and things like that, but look at what’s growing natively, if you take the counterpart to that you’re probably going to have good results.

Nurse Amy: Jack, I don’t know if you know this, but Joe and I are both master gardeners for the state of Florida. And I would really love to spend an hour with you talking about cover crops and the fact that you need to feed your soil and it’s more about feeding your soil and less about feeding the plants and what goes on under the ground that makes your plant healthier. Because just like making your body healthier for resistance to disease, if you give the plant what it needs you’re going to have less problems. And I think that’s an important thing. People don’t think about what’s underneath the soil, they’re just looking at the plant.

Jack Spirko: Well I told you folks that they were kindred spirits. Where have you heard that before, feed the soil not the plant? So I’ll tell you what, we’re about at the end of this but I would love to book you guys to come back on. We’ll look at the calendar, I’ll get with you sometime in September and bring you back on just to talk about gardening and healthcare for the land, let’s say.

Nurse Amy: That’s right. Jack, you know we’re going to meet you in Denver. We’re going to the conference.

Jack Spirko: Oh that’s awesome! Yeah, folks I’m going to be at the Self Reliance Expo in Denver – is it the 18th? The 19th? 16th and 17th.

Nurse Amy: Yeah, 16th and 17th. Yep, we’ll be there, we’re going to have a booth also and I hope you come over and do a little interview with us because we’ll be broadcasting.

Jack Spirko: Absolutely I’ll be there and I’ll be catching up with you guys while you’re there. And folks, come meet us all. Come up there and meet me, meet Dr. Bones, meet Nurse Amy, Jeff the Berkey Guy is going to be there. In fact a lot of our sponsors are going to be there. So make sure you guys come to that, I’ll put a link to the Expo website where you can learn more about it in today’s show notes as well. But guys, man this has been one of the best interviews I’ve ever done. Thank you so much.

Nurse Amy: Aww, we love you! Thank you! And I can’t wait to meet you, I’m very excited. You and your nurse wife.

Jack Spirko: Yeah, you can talk to her about getting to get on this microphone once in a while. You heard her talk to you before the show today. She’s got a fine voice, nothing wrong with it. She’s mic shy I guess, when it goes on the public airways. But guys again, thank you and again, tell everybody where they can find out more about you guys and get all your great resources.

Nurse Amy: doomandbloom.net. We also have a Twitter, @preppershow. We have a Facebook which is Doctor, spell it out, Bones and Nurse Amy Show. But the doomandbloom.net is where you can get all of the information.

Jack Spirko: And I’ll link off to your site and all of your social media connections in today’s show notes as well. And with that, this has been Jack Spirko today along with Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy helping you figure out how to live that better life, if times get tough or even if they don’t.

<1:06:39>

<closing song>

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