Author Topic: Tesla not so good for the environment  (Read 4590 times)

Offline Carl

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Tesla not so good for the environment
« on: June 21, 2017, 10:55:16 AM »
Article state that just the production of the Tesla battery releases more CO2 than EIGHT years of auto driving, my thought ...so much for planet friendly.

Quote from first link below:

Huge hopes have been tied to electric cars as the solution to automotive CO2 climate problem. But it turns out the the electric car batteries are eco-villains in the production process of creating them. Several tons of carbon dioxide has been emitted, even before the batteries leave the factory.

IVL Swedish Environmental Research Institute was commissioned by the Swedish Transport Administration and the Swedish Energy Agency to investigate litium-ion batteries climate impact from a life cycle perspective. There are batteries designed for electric vehicles included in the study. The two authors Lisbeth Dahllöf and Mia Romare has done a meta-study that is reviewed and compiled existing studies.

The report shows that the battery manufacturing leads to high emissions. For every kilowatt hour of storage capacity in the battery generated emissions of 150 to 200 kilos of carbon dioxide already in the factory. The researchers did not study individual brand batteries, how these were produced, or the electricity mix they use. But if we understand the great importance of the battery here is an example: Two common electric cars on the market, the Nissan Leaf and the Tesla Model S, the batteries about 30 kWh and 100 kWh.

Even before buying the car emissions occurred, corresponding to approximately 5.3 tons and 17.5 tons of Carbon Dioxide. The numbers can be difficult to relate to. As a comparison, a trip for one person round trip from Stockholm to New York by air causes the release of more than 600 kilograms of carbon dioxide, according to the UN organization ICAO calculation.
Another conclusion of the study is that about half the emissions arising from the production of raw materials and half the production of the battery factory. The mining accounts for only a small proportion of between 10-20 percent.

The calculation is based on the assumption that the electricity mix used in the battery factory consists of more than half of the fossil fuels. In Sweden, the power production is mainly of fossil-nuclear and hydropower why lower emissions had been achieved.

The study also concluded that emissions grow almost linearly with the size of the battery, even if it is pinched by the data in that field. It means that a battery of the Tesla-size contributes more than three times as much emissions as the Nissan Leaf size. It is a result that surprised Mia Romare.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/06/20/tesla-car-battery-production-releases-as-much-co2-as-8-years-of-gasoline-driving/

http://climatechangedispatch.com/study-tesla-car-battery-production-releases-as-much-co2-as-8-years-of-driving-on-gas/

Quote from different point of view:

One of the most irritating things about articles discussing electric car emissions is the way it’s always very black and white.  In one corner you have the ‘zero emissions’ brigade and in the other the ‘worse than combustion engine’ crew.

But as ever, real life comes in shades of grey.

The reality is that even after you account for the bigger manufacturing footprint of an electric car it is all about the fuel mix of the power you use, the ‘juice’ if you will.

Using coal powered electricity electric cars do nothing to cut emissions, using natural gas electricity they’re like a top hybrid and using low carbon power they result in less than half the total emissions of the best combustion vehicle, manufacturing included.


Read more at http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green#GQehWjK6kM8UzJm2.99


Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2017, 01:01:03 PM »
Sounds like a balanced analysis.  The true "emissions footprint" whether looking at CO2, or any other by-product, should include the full resource extraction, manufacturing, transportation/deliveries, and the on-going consumption for power.  You might even want to include the by-products during the recycle phase as well.  I am always suspicious of claims based on a narrow part of the life cycle rather than the entire cycle.

It is sad when people rave about their zero emission car but they live where 50% or more of that recharge electricity is from coal or petroleum fuels.  Even in Oregon with several huge hydro dams we still have lots of gas turbine gens.  Other areas probably have either much nuclear or fossil fuel generation percentage.

Offline Carl

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2017, 03:33:23 PM »
Maybe they will offer a 'hand crank' recharge option? :)

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2017, 05:47:38 PM »
The Teslas are very popular out here, it is a rare combination of a consumer product that is a status, luxury product, due to its price and the brand name, and then it is also good for Virtue Signaling because it is electric !

Good article ! Real data on the costs of the Lithium Ion battery ! Now, this is the same battery for the "power wall" for solar backup, just mounted vertically. And, CA has a huge rebate program to subsidize this on the consumer end, ostensibly for CO2 reduction. But, as far as I can tell, CA only calculates emmissions here in CA, not what CA residents are responsible for ! SO, that lithium is mined somewhere else, etc... (This is why I bought the Salt water storage batteries for my solar back-up, total lifecycle costs not just to my budget, but also due to materials used in production and decomission. Unfortunately, Elon Musk is a great salesman and garnered all the private and public investment, and Aquion just went bankrupt ! )

I would absolutely love for some real data/study/article to show the true CO2 footprint for a virtual signalling Silicon valley resident with 8kW of solar panels on the roof, 2 power walls, a Tesla X, the corolla and then a "friday car" ( the porsche), 3 TV's, 1 trip flying to the est coast, and one overseas per year, ...etc.... and this would need to include the Carbon footprint of the online time, which has a very large carbon footprint, all done outside the home, for server farms, etc....

Offline NWPilgrim

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2017, 06:08:48 PM »

I would absolutely love for some real data/study/article to show the true CO2 footprint for a virtual signalling Silicon valley resident with 8kW of solar panels on the roof, 2 power walls, a Tesla X, the corolla and then a "friday car" ( the porsche), 3 TV's, 1 trip flying to the est coast, and one overseas per year, ...etc.... and this would need to include the Carbon footprint of the online time, which has a very large carbon footprint, all done outside the home, for server farms, etc....

Oh you mean like Al Gore's five mansions and how that reduces is carbon footprint?  Or some of these stars that fly around the country and world preaching to others to not drive petrol cars?

Offline Carl

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 06:19:02 PM »
The terrible Tesla really depends on one believing that carbon actually has anything to do with environmental climate change. I do not,but
know than many do so I keep them informed so ,one day,I can sell virtual carbon credits to save the planet too.

Offline machinisttx

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2017, 06:43:09 PM »
I think what they're really saying when they cry about C02 emissions is that they want plant life to die. They are conspiring to murder plants!   ;D

I occasionally see a Chevy Volt on my way to work in the morning, and I saw a Tesla around here a week or two ago. I'm not really sure how they think that EV's are any better for the environment, but they certainly can give an illusion of such. They've just managed to move the pollution elsewhere.

I'm going to have my sister in law make me a sticker that says "Fueled by Mesozoic sunshine" and slap it on my "stinky, dirty, gross polluter" Dodge 12 valve.  :happydance:

Offline Carl

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2017, 07:15:17 PM »
 :) now you can Karma coat it..

Offline Crazy Fox

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2017, 09:51:35 PM »
Maybe they will offer a 'hand crank' recharge option? :)

Hand crank? Don't be ridiculous... everybody knows they only offer a hamster wheel as a recharge option! ;D

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2017, 09:52:40 AM »
While the above research is valid on the amount of CO2 produced to make batteries, the journalist who wrote the article is way off the mark.  It is apples-to-oranges to compare production of batteries to operating of ICE vehicle.  A valid comparison is the total production of electric vehicle to total production of ICE vehicle and then total operating of electric vehicle to total operating of ICE vehicle.  When it is done in an apples-to-apples manner the electric vehicle produces massively lower amounts of CO2.  See here: http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cleaner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf

Another thing that isn't taken account is that electric vehicles produce less-and-less over time.  As the grid produces less CO2 per unit of energy, the advantage of electric gets higher and higher.  Also, the much cited statistic about battery production disappears as more batteries go into production.  This is because they are highly recyclable and the recycling process produces very little CO2.  So within about a decade we will see that number start to approach zero.  We saw this same type of thing emerge with the closing of the last primary lead refinery in the US.  Recycling technology greatly reduces the need for new production for items which are easily recoverable.  It turns out batteries whether lead or lithium based are easily recycled.

Personally, I don't think CO2 reductions matter at all.  But electric vehicles have so many other advantages that makes them very competitive.  In performance (acceleration, speed, handling) no ICE can compete head-to-head with an electric vehicle.  And in environment electric has one big advantage.  It shifts the pollution from where we live to a centralized power plant.  This plant has much better devices for capturing/mitigating real problem (think smog producing) emissions.  It also is more efficient use of energy as plants are more efficient than small engines for producing vehicles and grid delivery is more energy efficient than fuel delivery.  Finally it allows us to use our other natural resources (coal, natural gas, uranium, solar, wind) which means each locale can use the best mix of energy for their needs.

Offline Carl

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2017, 10:39:02 AM »
  LIBERTY,you are correct as I chose to point out how one can find evil easily and prove the case when not looking with an open mind.
Electric auto's will probably be the answer BUT CO2 has little or nothing to do with Global Warming and few actually found what I was demonstrating .
Just like my wood is a green fuel VS Wood is a bad fuel posts . I win some ,I lose some.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2017, 04:39:37 PM »
  LIBERTY,you are correct as I chose to point out how one can find evil easily and prove the case when not looking with an open mind.
Electric auto's will probably be the answer BUT CO2 has little or nothing to do with Global Warming and few actually found what I was demonstrating .
Just like my wood is a green fuel VS Wood is a bad fuel posts . I win some ,I lose some.

Agree on all points.  Electric vehiclex do have one glaring danger, fires during accidents.  When those batteries go in a crash it is game over.  And many municipalities still do not have the equipment and traing to deal with battery hazards.  There is a picture out there of firefighters using a "jaws of life" inches from a battery pack.  Yikes!  That is probably one reason why Tesla spends so much more on crash testing than traditional vehicle companies, they have to engineer the vehicles to protect tge batteries and also keep them from going "poof" if they do puncture.  I think that is also why they are pushing autonomous vehicles, ie to lower the number of crashes.

Offline Carl

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2017, 04:53:09 PM »
  Plus the reaction to anything like water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNMfe20I_IE

Puncture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLc74Qpvweg

Heat

https://www.engadget.com/2015/04/30/lithium-ion-battery-failure/


They are maybe not as flammable as gasoline ,but I really  think they are not quite stable yet. The new Tesla I hear can be under $30K and may get enough Gullible frugal consumers so they can have a good test market.

https://www.tesla.com/model3   Maybe they will advertise the explosive acceleration?

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2017, 06:40:39 PM »

They are maybe not as flammable as gasoline ,but I really  think they are not quite stable yet. The new Tesla I hear can be under $30K and may get enough Gullible frugal consumers so they can have a good test market.

The model 3 will about cost the same as the fully equiped v6 camry.  Both have 0 to 60 acceleration sub six second.  But the Tesla will save about $1000 in fuel costs in typical city fuel driving per year. Plus you never have to waste time at a fuel station.

For people with older, bigger vehicles getting 15 mpg or less, the tesla model 3 will basically be free over a 12 year time span.  That is, the cost of the vehicle plus operating will be about the same as the fuel cost of the existing vehicle. 

Offline Carl

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Re: Tesla not so good for the environment
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2017, 06:57:24 PM »
  I hope to live to see that day come.