Are airguns any good for self defense? real or psychological?

[21cygnus12]

I started buying air guns to prepare for shooting some classic firearms I have wanted to mess with. Long story short, I really became captivated with the air gun platform and have acquired roughly 20 of them....I saw this thread and have also been thinking a lot about this topic because I find it interesting. I felt compelled to drop my two cents into the pot.

I am no firearms expert....there can be no argument against packing a Glock or 1911 chambered in .45 acp...no argument. It will work and it will handle an intruder problem effectively and reliably....that said, as an engineer, I find it interesting to design things and to make a solution out of something that may not seem to work. I have developed a home defense scenario using air guns and I do think it would be quite effective....for what it's worth, this is my plan.

Weapons....
Beretta cx4 .177, 5 30 round preloaded clips...88 gram, 150 shots
Hatsan Torpedo 155, .25, 1 shot
Webley Patriot, .25, 1 shot
Gamo PT-85 holstered right
Beretta PX4 holstered left

Equipment...
Custom Kevlar tactical vest

Preparation is key....and I do not recommend this is the best home defense plan, but I do submit that whomever is foolish enough to see the NRA sticker on our front door, hear the dual ameirican bulldogs announcing their readiness...and still enter....I will prevail with that arsenal of weapons.

Basically, the vest is already packing the co2 pistols and all loaded clips, the cx4 is charged (I've tested the shelf time here) and each co2 pistol requires a simple 1 twist to charge. I'm up, vest on, weapons systems ready and I'm coming at the intruder with 200 shots of 8 grain 600 fps....30 plugs at a time....you would be surprised at how hard that thing hits....I have no doubt that it will exact severe damage to a perp especially with 200 rounds....once the beretta clips are expended, the rifles come off the back vest custom holds and there are 2 more shots at .25. Again, you would be quite surprised at the power those rifles have and how hard they hit....one well landed patriot .25 round would be quite damaging....once the rifles are chucked, should I have to get I there for some close wet work, the pistols are there. Again, these are not 70s daisy BB guns....these things pack more of a punch then you might imagine.

Again, I'm not recommending this to anyone as the best method of HSD, but I will tell you, without a doubt, I'm  going to win the challenge and handily so. I doubt I would have to go past the cx4 and one rifle.

Anyway, just a fun little scenario I guess.

[blademan]

Sounds fun. Hatsan makes some repeating .25 rifles on a pcp platform. I hear awful things about Turkish firearms though, but have to admit I am considering one. Rather than all the complication and weight of your set up, I would recomend a larger caliber repeating or even single shot rifle from inside a hardened house with barriers and dogs (you mentioned bull dogs) the Rogue is a great gun for this but could be better if is wasn't so freakin big. I would like to make my own Caselman, but don't have the machining capability at the moment.
   One of the Korean air cannons in .45 or .50 even though they are single shot would be a good way to knock something down.
  If you want to use multiple smaller calibers, what you need is more than on shooter and a response protocol so you don't end up shooting each other's eyes out. EDGun makes some nice bullpup .25s that are supposed to be real babes to shoot, but they are all single shot. They one of the sexiest pcp air psitols I've ever seen. Its called the Veles. I think it means tree or forest spirit in Russian or something like that. They are ridiculously expensive because of the import and the quality, but they look like a serious enthusiast's gun. There's a guy on utube that really likes his. If you want to get some really good videos on how to use an airgun for pest or small game hunting, go watch this guy's vids, he is a surgeon with a air rifle out to 75 to 100 yards. That's an amazing shot for little airgun lit what he has. Almost silent too! Look it up, he uses a scope cam pretty well so its worth watching.

[21cygnus12]

Indeed...the Veles is beautiful; 800fps with 10 grain is better than anything I have in an air pistol. Very nice recommendation. I do have the fantastic RWS LP8 @ 700fps but that certainly is not with 10 grain. I will, however, proclaim that the LP8 is just a wonderful piece of engineering and manufacturing.

I have been thinking about a hardening plan, however, more of a plan that makes the interior of our home an "equalizer"....in that I mean steel plates hidden in the walls that preclude firearm rounds from going through the walls of my bedroom descent arena of operations :-)

My non-negotiable methodology....if an intruder enters our home....for better or worse, is to be the hunted not the hunter. My wonderful wife is slowly accepting my prodding to become firearm proficient and she has a bevy of capable rifles at her disposal behind our locked bedroom door (I should harden the door and close surrounding walls!). While I am forcefully and violently providing the forward, ground gaining protective mission, she will be prepared calmly behind locked doors with enough firepower and the knowledge to use it (not sure about the will yet) should I go down. 

Our home is our place of retreat...our lovingly decorated place of comfort and warmth and privacy. Our place of memories with our children and our place of solace. Shame on anyone for entering with ill intent and I will not hide. I will forcefully and violently defend what I have spent 30 years working for and crafting into a "home".

Let's hope more of our fellow americans will begin adopting a semi-overt style of proclaiming vigilance against wrong doers and those having nefarious intent!

Oooops....was I stepping up to the podium there? Sorry :-)

[blademan]

Just a little bit, but no harm done. I would suggest rather than rushing in to danger while the fair maiden waits in the armory, you develope a dynamic plan for dealing with home defense situations. As for making the house more inaccessible, I have always thought that overhead rolling security doors would make a good reinforcement for windows and doors. Its a bit hard on the decor, but they could also be used to deny access to one section of the house from inside, such as putting them in a hallway in which bedrooms are located.
 You could get pretty sophisticated with it, but you don't have to. So this is a good discussion, I've really enjoyed it.

[21cygnus12]

It is a good discussion and I'm being challenged to think in new ways about HSD. That's always a good thing, ie to see different thoughts on a topic. The reality is that a less emotional ( yes I would like to bring violence to intruders....that may feel good but not be as effective) and more thoughtfully approached plan will likely serve the objective more effectively. Once a home invasion were to be in progress, the more logical and calmly implemented plan will likely be more effective....

I have concocted some entertaining outer perimeter defense ideas over the years....for instance earth grounded porch plate at each door and several hundred kV on the stealth conductive doors; pneumatic activated or spring loaded impaling rods that forcefully snap into place across window opening upon window breakage, just to name a few...I have no doubt these could be implemented, but the liability and legal issues are of concern....perhaps when we move to Texas.

I do like the internal perimeter draw gate or pull down "shield".... That could be easily hidden into the wall with a tape measure type spring mechanism...and with few exposed details that would upend the decor. That seems like a very doable and very cost effective measure and could be used to isolate bedrooms from rest of home. I like it....I don't like the hiding artifact that goes with it, but it would certainly allow for more calm preparation. If that was put into place along with a hidden entry from the bedroom zone into the rest of the home, one would have the element of surprise along with the preemptive planning ability. Probably be very few invaders that would come out breathing with that type of setup in place.

Good suggestion.....btw there is a whole Internet world of hidden room designs, methods and companies out there...you may be aware.

Now that would be quite an effective plan....present and safely hide behind the castle "gate". Intruders fully suspect that the valuables or people are cowering behind the overt barrier, then, bada bing, out comes the storm trooper from the covert passageway....

Love it.

[blademan]

I'm not a pacifist by any means. However, if I can isolate myself from intruders and taunt them over a speaker while waiting for the blue boys to appear and take them away, I'm super happy to do that. If you can win a conflict without fighting, that is a great thing. The thing to remember is exit strategy, leave an out in case the situation changes in an unexpected way and you have to vacate or retreat. Windows could be secured by the same pull down overhead door type solution. Putting brag worthy used range targets in your windows is a good deterrent as well. Or you could go the James Yeager route and have brass mulch in your flowerbed under your windows. I always though cacti under windows was a good deterrent until I thought about having to exit through a window in a fire. Make sure you design your security features with the concept that you may need to be able to disable them quickly as well as enable them quickly. Injurous traps are a bad idea. They could get you, be used against you by a trusted person who turns on you or they could get an innocent by mistake. I wouldn't want to fry a diabetic person having low blood sugar or an insulin reaction who was confused and trying to get into my house because they thought it was theirs. Things change a bit in a WROL situation but the basic idea is to make getting in more trouble than what's inside is likely worth to them. If a door can be opened, then it can be opened and someone can always come through a wall.
   Have fun, stay safe and be careful.

[livinitup0]

dangit blademan every time I go by the airguns at my local sporting goods store now I think of this thread....one of these days im going to end up leaving with a crossman.

[caverdude]

You didn't see the Rocford Files episode where he was shooting at the Mophia thug with a bb gun? He almost grazed an ear with it.

[soupbone]

 Trying to clear your house of a burglar or intruder is pretty much always a bad idea. Think going into the bush after a wounded cape buffalo, in the middle of the night, in your underwear and barefoot. Better to have a way to limit his access and mobility inside the house, and stay secure until the boys in blue get there. It's their job, and they're trained for it.

Being able to partition off sections of the house is a very good idea, one you might be able to accomplish with strong doors, security latches and deadbolts rather than the complication and expense of roll-ups. I like the idea of loud speakers to annoy or otherwise taunt the intruder. Coupled with CCTV so you can see/record his actions. The electronics are available at places like Radio Shack for doing it yourself. Being slowed down and finding himself unexpectedly facing a sophisticated defense system would convince the intruder that being someplace else is a very good idea. If that doesn't work, there are always remote control triggers for the CS/OC grenades you have hidden in the ceilings. Cleanup would be a bitch, but I'll bet you won't be broken into again. And the recording of his actions would probably get a million hits on YouTube....

Seriously, though, going one-on-one with somebody is never a good idea - you could get hurt. Popping away at sensitive areas with an airgun MIGHT be sufficient to persuade them to go somewhere else, but you'd better have backup - baseball bat, ball peen hammer, machete, etc., and be willing to use it. In this scenario, a fully automatic 400+ fps AirSoft gun directed at hosing down the face might make a persuasive argument. But only as a last resort - remember, some jurisdictions hold that using a gun-like object is legally the same as using a firearm.

soupbone

[blademan]

BSorry livinitup, leave the crossmans alone if you are looking for power and go for a PCP. Precharged pneumatic. I spoke of these at some length earlier and won't inflict the thread with it again. The others less powerful ones CAN be lethat (that's what I'm looking for, not a plinker) IF you get LUCKY. You won't get lucky dependably. (Wouldn't life be nice if you did! Wink)
   Yeah, the overhead doors are a bit of a pain and getting the idea to pass your wife (or whatever) might be pretty much like getting the ok to move a supermodel into the spare room because "we need the extra money".
  The concept is really good though. Strong doors that look good also could work. But if you could take the overhead door and make it work horizontally so that you could hide it in a wall and not loose the strength, and make it easier to use, that might make it easier to accept.
   Yes, I agree that going it mano a mano is a bad idea, that's why getting and using training and learning how to configure your home to your greatest advantage and to the greatest detriment of an intruder is so important.
  If you can prevent the intrusion, or be and stay in control of it from the start without having to duke it out, that is a good way to go.
 
   

[21cygnus12]

I certainly agree with the partitioning....a very sound and effective idea. My HSD plan does have a vigilante component to it, and in no way am I condoning or suggesting it to others, however, it is what I want to do. I want to forcefully bring war to an intruder and I want to send a very strong, if not permanent, message.

I would also like to point out that some of the air guns available, and that I own are far far more serious than an air soft unit. I just purchased a Hatsan BT65 pcp at .25 cal..in the 60fpe neighborhood with a 9 shot rotary clip. And now as a backup I have the .25 patriot and .25 155 torpedo....unless you have fired these, you may be misinterpreting the hit they deliver. If you nail the perp 3 out of nine shots with the bt65, the session is going to be coming to a close quickly.

With the zoned home treatment, the element of surprise and the type of air guns I'm talking about, I believe one is very well positioned to take care of business. You ought to fire some of these things and you will see they are quite serious weapons.

[21cygnus12]

Oh....and don't forget about the good old canines. Thats a perimeter zone of its own.

When you are harboring dual 85lb American bulldogs....or even a single for that matter, I think the zoning and whatnot are likely gratuitous; not many intruders are going to want to deal with that situation. This breed is exceedingly vigilant and protective of their domain....and make nice blankets as well when it is chilly outside. My bigger fella is draped across my lap right now watching Southland with me ;-)

[blademan]

Cygnus, I have seen the hatsan air rifles and have considered them. They seem very useful for hunting. I have heard that the Turks make some shoddy stuff but I don't know, so I am willing to give em a try.
  I wouldn't refuse to use a .25 for defense in either air or powder, but it would be about third on my list unless it was in my hand when I needed a trigger to pull. They tend to be more affordable and have higher round capacity than larger caliber rifles. Daystate has .303 cal that is advertised as a 100 yard gun. It uses a multi (10 I think) shot mag. Its called the Wolverine. Its a bit expensive and I think it uses a battery for the action.
   With the lower power of air rifles, it better to go as big as you can afford when all other things are more or less equal. The type of pellet is important too. This is a debate that could go on all day and I don't really want to do that. I would like to see some sabot rounds for air rifles that allow you to use smaller and lighter ammunition in higher power larger caliber air rifles. Such as a .30 cal pellet in a .45 or .50 so that you could get some real high power or extended range, kind of like being able to scale up and down with a shotgun. Perhaps a sabot round would be impractical for air guns for various reasons, but a barrel sleeve could be used to convert a larger caliber rifle to a smaller caliber one without damaging or permanently altering the rifle.
 FX also makes one called the verminator extreme. It has a long barrel, a carbine, a special barrel for shooting included arrows (I don't know if they are proprietary arrows) and a fishing reel that attaches to the gun to use the arrow for arrow fishing. It comes I think in .22 and .25. Its a PCP platform and one of the most expensive production air rifle I have seen.
  But it does have versatility and I have read some good reviews about it.
   So let's get this thread back on track. Its about airguns as home self defense. Its already established that it sucks and shouldn't be done or relied on for various and good reasons. What I want to do is now talk about how to do it in the case that you have to. The reason you have to is pretty irrelevant. This could be an air rifle by itself in a one on one situation, an airgun as part of gear kit for self and home defense. It could be just you or as part of a group with a mixed bag of weaponry, including or excluding firearms. It could be as mundane as a "run of the mill" home invasion or as far out as a WROL or EROL situation where you are fighting for your life more often than you are hunting for food or any situation in between.
  I would like to treat this as a serious study in how to use unconventional tactics and equipment in self and home defense situations.
  So, any takers? The floor is open!

[armymars]

Blademan, your a genius! A barrel liner. I may try that on my 36 cal. Quankenbush.

[21cygnus12]

I suggest we start here....perhaps to get a baseline....certainly if we are discussing airguns as self-defense we ought to have a feel for the capability....yes that says 171 meters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTtO8_TqhIU

[blademan]

Nice video cygnus. Over 300 feet and still going through a 1/2 or 3/4 inch board. Not bad at all. That raises that rifle in my estimation. That have a newer version with a synthetic stock that has slots just in front of the trigger and behind the foregrip that hold two loaded mags for quick relading.
   That's suprisingly more powerful than I was expecting. The accuracy was a bit lacking but at over 300 feet, that's probably to be expected out of that platform.
  And thanks ArmyMars, I was pretty impressed with the idea too. I was thinking that a sleeve for something like a 50 cal sam yang that would convert it to a .357 or a .25.  That would really rocket the pellet. Probably get some serious velocity out of it. You would probably have to recess and chamfer the breech of the barrel sort of like an inverted forcing cone on a revolver so that you get the most airflow possible, it would make it a little wonky to use but it would work. Depending on the design, a standard forcing cone design would work as well.
   Wish I had the money to get one of those hatsans, they look fun.

[21cygnus12]

Yes! Surprising was not my first thought, but, Surprising for sure. When I saw that video for the first time I was laughing in disbelief. That is over 500' at 171 meters and I believe that distance is true  based on the time delay between fire and hit. Without going too far out of bounds for the discussion you have proposed, then, I will proffer that this would be quite an effective air gun for HSD, and, I will add that HSD is rarely in the 500' area so accuracy should be quite good at, say, 50'. That is not substantiated of course.

Heck...lets see a top 5 airgun list...that one would keep in the closet for HSD. Also, remember you log onto amazon, press "order" and it arrives at your door; none of the Obamanomics or recently imposed gyrations to go through....there I go stepping towards that podium again; shameless.

I'm repeating myself when I say some folks are probably misinterpreting the ballistics of some of the modern airguns....this doodad here, the BT65, is quite a tool!

[blademan]

well if i was going use a .25 itb would have to be the  evanix  mentioned above. there's one made by evanix, the conquest, its a 9mm 7 shot pcp. its battery powered but so is the rogue an the conquest is smaller. i will post more on this later.
 

[caverdude]

If you happen to be holding an air gun at the moment of the attack it might be great self defense tool

[E.Huff]

I just recently educated myself of air rifles and was quite surprised to see just how awesome they really are, an air rifle would definitely come in handy if something bad happened, in wooded areas with good camo or urban areas you could do some damage. In WW2 they used .22's and there's even stories of pellet guns being used to hit the enemy in the face at close distances to stay silent while others acted as distractions with real weapons. A .25 caliber air gun round i believe would easily kill someone if hit in the vital areas or stomach area, they are powerful little weapons, especially the ones they have today. I would love to buy one like the FX models with a longer barrel for a longer range setup if i had the money because they are really pretty quiet and about as accurate as it gets at 50 yrds, i think you can get some kind of suppressor or mods to make them even more quiet. They're light as well so it would be a very useful backup gun to carry with you in a war type scenario, I'd argue them being more useful than a backup hand gun in outdoor fighting anyways.

[Lamewolf]

No no and no

Good way to get shot. You don't bluff when it comes to self defense. If it is serious enough to need a gun to protect yourself then having something like that is just foolish.

Yeah, kind of like bringing a knife to a gun fight !

[Carl]

  While an air gun may seem like a good idea...it will get you killed.
Less than lethal rubber and bean bag ammo as maybe round one in a REAL shotgun and buckshot after that...you only have one life.

[CagedFeral]

I think you'd do better begging for your life while holding a blade hid behind your forearm.

I'd think if you pointed it at a bad guy you'd get shot 2-3 times. If you shot him with it he'd empty the mag and might be mad enough to reload.

[Gamer]

I am just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on airguns, specifically replicas being used as self defense..

I'd say forget it!
Pulling a replica or pellet gun on somebody would have one of several effects, namely it'd either make him run off, or it'd make him lunge at you in rage and rip you apart.
Or he could just stand there wth his arms open saying "Go on then, shoot!" and you'd be left wondering what to do next.
If he pulls a knife and comes at you, a pellet shot won't stop him, so what you gonna do then?
Of course, a worst case scenario is if he pulls a gun on you and starts blasting in self defence, and no jury would convict him..