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The Survival Podcast

DATE:         May 8, 2012



Steven Harris returns to TSP for his 8th visit. Today he joins us to discuss various alternative energy technologies today focusing on hydrogen and fuel cells.
Steven Harris is a consultant and expert in the field of energy. He is the founder and CEO of Knowledge Publications, the largest energy only publishing company in the USA.
Mr. Harris came to his current position to do full time work on the development and implementation of hydrogen, biomass and solar related energy systems after spending 10 years in the Aero-Thermal Dynamics department of the Scientific Labs of Chrysler Corporation.
Steve is always full of great ideas, knowledge and projects we can use to improve our personal energy independence and today is no exception. Once again we ate up the entire hour without covering Steve’s entire outline so he will be back for Part 3 in this series soon.

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Offline Hootie

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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2013, 05:04:15 PM »

Jack Spirko: With that coming back to TSP for his 8th appearance, Steven Harris. We are finally going to wrap up the alternative energy segment. This is episode three of this list that we are going through. Primarily we are going to be talking about hydrogen. Hey Steve welcome back to the Survival Podcast.


Steven Harris: Jack, happy to be here. This was supposed to be one show and it got stretched out to three. I don't believe it.


Jack Spirko: Well I do because when you sent me your outline, I was like "Holy Shit, this is like 4 or 5 hours worth of material." But that is part of why love you coming on the show. You bring all the great information. You bring all the stuff that nobody talks about. You bring the true story about this alternative technologies. You do all my work for me by preparing everything in advance. <Steven laughs> You make it easy, man. Thanks for that.


Steven Harris: I do it for the audience too. We are covering everything that works and doesn't work, what works about it and what doesn't work about it.So when you see it and when you hear about it that you can go, "Yeah this is good stuff. I can use this." Or you can turn around and run like the wind as fast as you can away from the crooks.


Jack Spirko: The thing that we kind of left for last is ironically the thing... You are kind of an expert in all this stuff, but you have years of expertise in this because you worked on it at Chrysler if I remember right. Which is hydrogen fuel technologies.


Steven Harris: Actually at Chrysler I wasn't working on the hydrogen fuel technologies. I was working on vehicle development with all sorts of vehicle development and fuels. Hydrogen was not explored by Chrysler in the 90's. It was done in the 80's and they made hydrogen vehicles. Hydrogen vehicles are real simple to make. They are not complex. It was my consulting work that I was doing during Chrysler and then after the year 2000 that I did tremendous more work with hydrogen. My mentor that I have been working with since 1993 is Roy McAlister, the president of American Hydrogen Association and the author of "The Solar Hydrogen Civilization" and other books that I worked with in depth on hydrogen. In fact hydrogen is in everything. You can get it from almost anything depending upon how it is bound. It is one of the fuels of the future. Natural gas is definitely the next fuel of the future the we will, our children and our grandchildren, will be using in huge abundance. But methane, natural gas, is CH4. One carbon and four hydrogen. The next thing that we are going to be using in abundance after methane is going to be hydrogen.


Jack Spirko: You just made a statement and it kind of kicks off my first question for you today. Hydrogen is the most abundant thing in the universe. It is the simplest molecule there is. One proton and electron. What is holding it back.


Steven Harris: I hate that so much. I hate that statement so much. <Jack laughs> "It is the most abundant element in the universe."


Jack Spirko: Come on, it is on Star Trek is has to be true. Are you saying that is just marketing like Paul Wheaton?


Steven Harris: It is in the universe. Not in the world. <Jack laughs> In the universe as in past low earth orbit. Which we have not been past low earth orbit and we have only been as far as the moon. Most of the hydrogen is in the stars. You know the thing that is a billion times the size of the earth and has a surface temperature of 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit and an internal temperature of 30,000,000 degrees (Fahrenheit). Ok. Get close to it and get some hydrogen. <Jack laughs> The most abundant thing in the world, yeah..." It is like saying we have 1,000,000 men and 1 women. And men are the most abundant species. If you got nothing to combined with it is no good. Hydrogen is only as good as what it can combined with. You got to have two hydrogen and one oxygen to combined with each other to release heat or get electrons or to get energy moving. You can have all the hydrogen in the world and you got one mouse fart of oxygen, you can only combine as much hydrogen that goes with that mouse fart worth of oxygen. Saying it is the most abundant in the world is like, whoopee....


Jack Spirko: Where do we end up with water than. Isn't that exactly what water is, H20?


Steven Harris: Water is H20. It is kind of like you and your wife. You see a pretty woman going by and you look at her. You and your wife are married, you are tightly bound. You are not a free radical. You just can't go off and combined with anything else that you want. You are stuck right where you are. Hydrogen and water have an extremely tight bond to it. You are not just going to willy nilly split it. By the laws of thermodynamics, and I don't give a damn what anyone else is thinking or saying, it takes by far more energy to get that hydrogen and oxygen apart then you are going to get from the resulting hydrogen that you get back. Even if you combine it with the oxygen that if came with in the first place. You are not going to get more energy out. It takes more energy to get it apart and to use it, then you get from the hydrogen itself. It is not something where I am going to do a little bit of work and get a big results. It is not like lighting wood on fire. Where you use a match, a small amount of energy, and you get a continuous exothermic combustion going continually after that. We will talk about wood. Wood is actually a really good place to hydrogen because mother nature has done all the work for you. It is not a tightly bound molecule. That is part of the mythos. People think hydrogen is a lightsaber. It is like, "Ahhh, I have hydrogen. I have infinite power. Give me more power. I can power the world because I have a little bit of hydrogen." Hydrogen is no different than methane, propane, and gasoline. It has a BTU value with it. It is so many BTUs per cubic foot. Hydrogen is 60,000 to 80,000 BTUs per pound, oh my god. Gasoline and natural gas is about 18,500 BTUs per pound. Hydrogen 5 or 6 time the energy per pound of any other fuel. But look at it, it is fluffy. It takes up a great deal of space. Lets say you have a car that runs on sugar and trying to run it off of hydrogen is like trying to run it off of marshmallows, because it is so low intensity. If fact it is the lightest density element there is. It is element number one.


Jack Spirko: How do we solve that problem if it has potential to be used as a fuel. How do we create it without a energy deficit?


Steven Harris: It is impossible. It is absolutely impossible to get hydrogen without an energy deficit. It is just not floating free in the air for you to get. There are parts per trillion of hydrogen floating around in the air. Parts per trillion or lower. You know where that comes from? That comes from when water falls on metal and the metal rusts. It goes from iron to iron-oxide. It pulls the oxygen out of the water


Jack Spirko: And it release the hydrogen as a free racial. Quickly it is going to bound with something, right?


Steven Harris: It is going to go free for a little while. Then with sunlight (and oxygen) it is going to combine in an upper atmosphere location. It is going to recombined with oxygen and it is going to form a little bit of heat and water vapor at the same time. It will recombined with atmospheric oxygen once it reaches a certain level in the atmosphere and gets stimulated to do so. I talked about hydrogen. It is not a lightsaber and not a mythical magical infinite energy. There is no free hydrogen in the world. I have a book and a video, "The Chemistry and Manufacture of Hydrogen." A fabulous book. It covers hydrogen, like I just said from rusting iron. That is actually the way hydrogen in the industry. The petrochemical industry uses rusting iron to make hydrogen. They take a big tower full of steel balls, and by a big tower I mean a 100 foot tower and I mean steel balls the size of your fist. They heat it up with natural gas. They blow up a bunch of natural gas and they get everything nice and red and hot. Then they make a bunch of steam, high temperature steam. They blow the steam up on hot red natural gas ball. Steam plus iron forms hydrogen and rust. The balls get rusty on the surface. You get a bunch of hydrogen out. This is an endothermic reaction, meaning it takes energy to happen. You are not taking steam and mixing it with hot iron, and not creating a 100 foot light saber glowing. It is not releasing more energy. It takes energy to break that molecular bond. Even when you are using 1,000 degree (Fahrenheit) steam and 1,600 degree Fahrenheit iron balls. It cools the iron and the steam down making the hydrogen. They cool down below their working temperature. You got your hydrogen. Then what you do is you turn on the natural gas again. Only you turn it on without enough air, so you get a reducing flame. What that is, is it is making carbon monoxide. Instead of burning natural gas... In a perfect world you burn natural gas you make carbon dioxide and hydrogen. Everything burning in this world goes to carbon dioxide... sorry to water, I misspoke. Burning natural gas goes to carbon dioxide and water vapor. Everything burning, even if you pour gasoline on yourself and you light your self. You are turning into carbon dioxide and water vapor. That is a perfect combustion. When you starve the flow of natural gas going into the tower of air, you are  producing carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide when it is hot, is a reducing agent. It converts the rust back into <laughs> the foundation of the entire Pittsburgh area, steal. It converts it right back into iron.


Jack Spirko: Ok.


Steven Harris: They then convert the rust back. They turn on the natural gas full blast again with enough air and heat it up. Then blow more steam up to it. This is called an iron cycle or an iron oxide cycle. It is a repeatable cycle that you can do at high temperature. You can do it in solar too. This is one of the foundation of the way we will make hydrogen with real solar energy. I don't mean worthless PV panels. You all know how much I hate photovoltaic panels. If you do this in a concentrated solar dish at 3000 degrees Fahrenheit, this is your reproducible and reusable cycle that you can use over and over and over with solar energy, that will make the energy that will fuel the world in the future. You can do this in Africa. You can do this in the United States. It is only a little hard to do in Alaska.


Jack Spirko: Ok, that makes sense.


Steven Harris: This is one of the ways...


Jack Spirko: I am glad you said that because I am sitting here going, "Wait a minute. All this crap I have heard hydrogen. If have to burn gas to make hydrogen. And I burn more gas and I get hydrogen. Why the hell am I going to do that?"


Steven Harris: That is right, you are not going to. Right now when space shuttle... <laughs> Long live the space shuttle. The space shuttle is dead. It has been killed. And Obama killed its successor coming off of it, so we have no space program to look up to now.


Jack Spirko: Yeah, that is a sore note with me. I think the space shuttle was ready to retire but killing Constellation. I don't want to side jerk but it really pisses me off


Steven Harris: When space shuttle went up, it went up on two solid rocket boosters. That big external tank full of hydrogen and oxygen. That hydrogen was, I believe, made by Praxair or Air Liquide in St. Louis. It was made by what is called the steam reformation of natural gas. Again you are mixing steam with natural gas to form hydrogen and carbon dioxide. You separate the carbon dioxide out and you sell it to the soda pop industry. Which is a heck of a business. Then they compress and re-compress and cool and chill and liquefy the hydrogen until it is a liquid. They put it unto the a big transport on a barge. It then goes down to Mississippi out into the Gulf of Mexico and around Florida to Cape Kennedy. When the space shuttle took off and it's engines were running on hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen came from US natural gas. That is where it came from. It is an easy way getting hydrogen, but again you are using more energy to get the energy. You are just better off using the natural gas in the first place.


Jack Spirko: Unless I am building a spaceship, and then I need the hydrogen.


Steven Harris: Right. Exactly. Let me get back to what I was talking about, making hydrogen from rust. I said the book is called "The Chemistry and Manufacture of Hydrogen." It was write in 1919 by a man called P. Litherland Teed. This is World War I technology. Actually we were making hydrogen in the Civil War for observation balloons. This is even pre World War I technology that I am talking about. This is not rocket science here. We have been making hydrogen for years with these chemical cycles. It is not economical to by iron and turn it into rust and throw away the rust and keep the hydrogen. But is is economical to do it with certain technologies such as solar heat or any high temperature waste heat source to make a source of hydrogen. This is covered in that book and we actually made a DVD on it. Lets say you were going to the store to buy a cylinder of hydrogen. Again, it is a cylinder of hydrogen, it is really fluffy stuff it is about 200 to 300 cubic feet in one cylinder. The cylinder could cost you between $50 and $200 per gallon of gas equivalent. That is right, I said a cylinder of hydrogen from a welding store is like buying gas $50 to $200 of gallon of gas equivalent. In fact if you have a 300 cubic foot cylinder of hydrogen, it is about 5 feet tall, it has the same amount of energy a 3/4 of a gallon of gasoline. It is not a super infinite amount of energy. It has great energy densities, it has great combustion characteristics which we will get into. It is not Mr. Fusion on the back of your Delorean in Back to the Future, that is just going to be put a little bit in and it is going to run you forever.


Jack Spirko: <Pause in audio> I didn't realize you were finished there. Cool. It is not the end all be all, but where does it take us. If it has all of this baggage, lets call it, then is it when we start concentrating solar heat that is becomes viable? Is there another way this becomes viable? Is there a way where we have a process that it becomes a byproduct of and we are taking energy somewhere else, so we are getting two sources of energy out or something like that?


Steven Harris: Hydrogen has an advantage that is burns very quickly. It burns about 30,000 feet per second. Gasoline is going to burn someplace about 5,000 or 6,000 or 7,000 feet per second. Its flame speed very quick. If you put a line of hydrogen across the room, mythically in the air, and you light it. It would be <boom sound> right on down it. If you did the same thing with gasoline vapor, it would go across the room at 1/6 the speed. This matters in your piston, in the cylinder of your car, because when you ignite the hydrogen instead of where the gasoline goes <slow thump sound> the hydrogen <fast boom sound>. You release more energy quicker. You can have the timing of the car more toward top dead center. Right now gasoline is about 10 degrees or 15 degrees before top dead center. The piston is coming up, compressing the gasoline, it is still coming up, and the spark plug goes off. You have this combustion working doing back work against the piston as the piston is coming up towards top dead center. Then it goes over top dead center, most of the combustion happens, and pushes it down. Hydrogen is kind of like playing Whack-A-Mole. The second the mole pops his head up you whack it really quick. You wait for the cylinder toward right at the top dead center, where there is no back work, and you ignite the hydrogen and it goes <fast thump sound>. It pushes the cylinder back down with no back work. It gets a little bit of efficiency from that. The other thing that has completely destroyed hydrogen, completely destroyed solar, and most of the other things especially wind energy; is the worthless good for nothing environmentalist movement has grabbed hold of it as their holy grail and song it's praises to the point where they have absolutely contaminated...


Jack Spirko: It is setting unreasonable expectations. I am the last person to be sucked into that world but I am learning things from you today about hydrogens limitations that I have never heard anywhere before.


Steven Harris: Yeah exactly. The thing is that environmentalist, the worthless good for nothing human hating man killing environmentalist. <Jack laughs> They only advocate things that can't be done. This has been proven throughout history. Geothermal is great. Geothermal is wonderful. We need to have geothermal. Then they try to implement geothermal in Alaska and Hawaii and they say "You can't do that. You are destroying... And putting a hole in the ground and a groundhog used to live there."


Jack Spirko: Yeah. I know you are not wild about photovoltaics but California tried to but a whole bunch of solar into a solar farm out in the middle of the desert. The environmentalist said you would alter the environment of the desert. Schwarzenegger, not my favorite guy but to his credit said, "If I can't but solar panels in the middle of the desert where the hell do you want me to put them?"


Steven Harris: Exactly. The same thing has now happened with wind energy. They have said, "Oh! Wind energy we have to have it!" So all the wind towers are going up. Now they say, "Oh No! You can't set them up. It kills birds. It makes noise. It kills my view and everything." They only advocate things that can't be done. Once it can be done then they protest them till they stop them.


Jack Spirko: Steve, you know what else kills birds?


Steven Harris: What?


Jack Spirko: Buildings with windows.


Steven Harris: Yeah.


Jack Spirko: I used to have this big office building I worked in. Every day 3 or 4 <thump sound>. I am thinking that maybe the bird issue is not as big as they want to make it out to be.


Steven Harris: You know what else kills birds? Other birds. What else kills birds... Shotguns. Shotguns kills birds.


Jack Spirko: I am there with you. Shotguns especially, they get hit by pellets all the time.


Steven Harris: That is what everyone does. They say lets have a hydrogen fuel cell bus. Everyone is going to want hydrogen because they are riding on a magical hydrogen fuel cell bus. In reality no one is a damn bus because they want to be there. They are there because they have to be there, because they don't have a car. This is not the hype of marketing. You don't take a technology and demonstrate it to a bunch of people who can't afford it. <Jack laughs> The only reason they are putting in a bus is because they can't put it in a car because it is too big.


Jack Spirko: I had a sales mentor one time, Steve, that taught me there are two reasons you never demonstrate or try to sell a project to someone who can't afford it. The obvious reason is that they can't afford it, they are not going to buy it, and you are not going to make any money. Two, was you were being mean because you are saying, "Look how great this is, but you can't have it."


Steven Harris: yeah, (kind of like saying) "Naw naw naw naw." That is what the environmentalist movement does. They what to show that, "We are so good. We could do this. I can take 5 billion dollars, that was going to an aircraft carrier, and I can make one hydrogen fuel cell bus. For this 5 billion dollar bus I can drive around in it. Everyone is going to want hydrogen. We are going to join hand and sing we are the world." No, it doesn't work way people. Hydrogen and natural gas, but especially hydrogen, has all the potential in the world to be a $1 per gallon of gas fuel. Even adjusted for inflation, it has the potential to be a $1 of gas equivalent fuel because it is everywhere from mother nature. It is in you and me. You and me are are made up of hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur. We are all made up of basic organic compounds. Jack, if you want have a green funeral I can turn your body into hydrogen someday when you pass away...


Jack Spirko: No man, I am getting made into ammunition. So people can shoot me off.


Steven Harris: Oh god yeah! I love it. We can do that. Technically you can do this because we can all the water and blood out of your body and we are left with cellulose. With you cellulose we can then nitrate it with nitric acid, and to get the water out use sulfuric acid. That is called the nitration process. That is cellulose nitrate. What is cellulose nitrate? It is gun power. Not black powder, It is actually the powder that goes into the bullets. We can literally, Jack....


Jack Spirko: There is a company does it. I was being serious.


Steven Harris: Sweet!


Jack Spirko: There is a company that will make you into ammo when you are dead. You can have a rooting shooting tooting celebration funeral, instead of a sad one.


Steven Harris: Oh god, I love it. <both laugh> That is what happens when you make a joke to a chemist, he would take it serious and find someone who has already made the business for it.


Jack Spirko: They do it easy. They prefer that your family have you cremated and you send the ashes in. They blend the ashes into the powder or into the lead. It is legitimate ammo made with your ashes.


Steven Harris: Ok. Human ashes are actually your ground up bones. It is not your ashes. I like my way better, sorry Jack. You are going into a vat of nitric acid.


Jack Spirko: <laughs> I hear you saying overall with hydrogen, is that it is great technology, it has tremendous potential, it is a future fuel, but we are just not there yet.


Steven Harris: No, we have been there since 1919. We have been there since before 1919. We could have been running the Model T on hydrogen. We could have been running it on bottled hydrogen. The first engine in the world, the very first internal combustion engine, ran on hydrogen because there was no gasoline. It ran on what was called town gas. What town gas is... This is perfect because I am getting ready to cover it again because you get it from cellulose. Town gas is where you take a bunch of coal or wood and you heat it up and you pass air through it. You do what I did in the last episode. Go back and listen to episode 6 or 7 where I talk about partial oxidation and gasifiers and the GEK from ALL Power Labs. You make carbon monoxide and hydrogen. You pipe this through the pipes. This is what ran everyones stoves in the late 1800s and in the early to mid 1900s, was town gas. You make it from coal and steam, or coal and air, or wood and air, or any combination thereof. When it comes to that high temperature chemistry they are all the same. This is what they used in lighting mantels for street illumination. Then it was used for ovens. Remember when someone used to say, "Oh go put your head in the oven and kill your self." That is kind of hard to do on natural gas. It came from time when people would commit suicide by putting their head in their oven because carbon monoxide and hydrogen are coming out of it and they get poisoned from the carbon monoxide. If you made the worlds first internal combustion engine, what are you going to run it off of. You are going to run it off of this explosive gas that is in the pipes that is coming to your house or your lab. The first engine in the world ran off of hydrogen. Henry Ford wanted the the Model T to run alcohol because it is so great to make alcohol, which I will tell you about at the end. I got the greatest stuff in the world for making alcohol. But no, they ran off of hydrogen and they could have  continued to run off of hydrogen. We could have done it with World War I technology. It is just that at the time, what was more convenient and easy, was that we came out with gasoline. Then you had the petrochemical industry... We literally went from running lambs off of whale oil and then off of kerosene. Then you have all of these by products left over from making kerosine, which are light ends. They are really flammable, which you can't use in a kerosene lamp because the whole thing would caught on fire. These are benzenes and toluenes. These are the components that make up gasoline. It was found that this would work pretty good in these new motors that were coming out. They you can get into conspiracy stuff and oil stuff. I love what we said on the last show. Never attribute to conspiracy what you can attribute to stupidity. They you had this really convenient form of liquid fuel that didn't have to have any pressurization, it had a really good density to it. You could just pour a liquid gallon of it into a car and you could go off. We as humans stick with what is convenient so we arched over what we could have done. Now that we have become more technology advanced, we got carbon fiber fuel bottles instead of steel cylinders for holding hydrogen or even aluminium ones. We can now compress it quicker and easier. We can store more of it. We could only store 2,000 to 3,000 PSI in the year 1919. Now we can store 10,000 PSI easily. It is coming around. We keep on going through this cycle where we keep on getting rid of our carbon molecules in our energy cycle.  We started with wood. Then we went to coal. Then we went to heavy oil. Then we went to refined petroleums. Then we went to the light gasses, propane and natural gas and butane. What we did is we kept on lowering the amount of carbon and increasing the number of hydrogen that were in our fuel. To the point where we are at the fuel of our future methane, which is one carbon and four hydrogens. It is just going to be a matter of time before we are just working with the four hydrogens instead of the one carbon and we are working with a fuel that has some really great efficiency and abundance characteristics to it. It is just chicken or the egg situation. Do get the hydrogen fuel pumps or the hydrogen cars first? Which one comes first, Jack?


Jack Spirko: I guess you need the fuel pumps because if you don't have fuel you can't do anything with the car.


Steven Harris: That correct. That is one thing we need.


Jack Spirko: That is kind of the same thing screwing with natural gas. If it was really easy to fuel up anywhere you could, people would be doing it now. And buying cars and running it now because it is so damn cheap.


Steven Harris: In many parts of the world that is true. Pakistan is abundant in natural gas. They actually converted diesel engines and put spark plugs in them to run them off of natural gas because diesel was $4 ag gallon equivalent and natural gas was $0.50 a gallon equivalent. They switched over to natural gas. Brazil is very popular with natural gas.


Jack Spirko: Are not they doing a hybrid thing where they have cars that will run on either ethanol of natural gas? And they have the natural gas tank? Or they are running some vehicles on ethanol because they have sugar cane out the butt down there?


Steven Harris: I talked about that in the last show. They have cars that will off of any combination or gasoline, alcohol, or natural gas; simultaneously or independently or at the same time. You can start off of natural gas. Drive half a day on natural gas. Then switch over the alcohol and gasoline, or any combination thereof. Fiat is one of biggest manufactures of that vehicle in Brazil. It is being done around the world in different areas. We got to get all of the idiot politicians we have out, get the smart people in that don't have agendas and preclusions to everything. And wipe out a bunch of dumb laws and let the free market and mother nature take over and let us establish certain things that we can right now. Technically it is illegal for you to modify your vehicle to run on natural gas because of certain EPA emission requirements. Especially the California's CARBs (California Air Resource Board) has to certify vehicles that run off of natural gas. A lot of people convert and run off of natural gas anyways, they just disable it before they go do their emissions test, which doesn't matter. They just don't want their technician to see it because the emissions are cleaner.


Jack Spirko: That is the point isn't it. If you just burn gas or your burn gasoline, you get cleaner burning from natural gas. Of course you would because it is just a cleaner fuel.


Steven Harris: Right. Gasoline is a bunch of carbons and a bunch of hydrogens bound together in long chain molecules. Literally there are a hundred different chemicals in gasoline. They all burn different. I am telling you that it is carbons and hydrogens, and it gets burned into dioxide and water vapors. If you take a single element like hydrogen and you burn it, so that hydrogen combines with oxygen and makes water. If you have a bunch of chemicals, they can split and crack and burn incompletely and from a whole bunch of different things, right?


Jack Spirko: Sure.


Steven Harris: If you have one element only, hydrogen, and it combines with element that is available to it in the air that is oxygen what do you get? Water.


Jack Spirko: You get water.


Steven Harris: Can you get anything else really?


Jack Spirko: Not really.


Steven Harris: No.


Jack Spirko: I am sure there is some weird way that somebody could shove hydrogen in something else, but not in nature.


Steven Harris: There are a lot people I would live to shove hydrogen into, believe me. <Jack laughs> No, you got hydrogen then it is going to water vapor. That is the only thing. You know what another great fuel is? It is carbon monoxide, CO. I talk about partial oxidation make carbon monoxide and hydrogen all the time. We know that carbon monoxide is the stuff that kills us when our furnace goes bad. Carbon monoxide is absolutely fabulous fuel because carbon monoxide can only go to... go to... any one? To something...


Jack Spirko: Carbon and Oxygen, one each right?


Steven Harris: Right, carbon monoxide and oxygen can only go to carbon dioxide. It can't form anything else. Carbon monoxide is a really good fuel because it can only form carbon dioxide.


Jack Spirko: "But is produces CO2, and it will kill us because we are all going to melt and the polar bears are going to die."


Steven Harris:  Umm no. <jack laughs> Thankfully many many scientist that have completely proven and show that carbon... Man is not warming the planet. There is this thing about 93 million miles out there that is many times bigger than the planet by a factor of a billion. It causes all of our weather. All of our life is due to it. It is called the sun. The sun's output is up a bit and so things are a little warmer. It is not because of us. We have detonated, I think, 550 atom bombs in the atmosphere and we haven't done anything to the planet. Look at the time scale of the planet, going back 5 billion years or even millions of years. The planet not only laughs at the pyramids which will be turned to dust. It laughs at anything we do because there is nothing we do that it can't undone in any short blink of an eye compared to time.


Jack Spirko: It is important that when we are talking about stuff like this we do say that dumping your garbage in the middle of the forest is not a good thing.


Steven Harris: Stupid.


Jack Spirko: Dumping toxic gas on the ground is pollution. Coal we can use it but when it is mined improperly and we dump sulfoxide into the groundwater, that is bad stuff. It is not that I think I am speaking for your here, but I don't think either one of us hate environmentalism. We hate modern bulshit environmentalism that ingors reall pollution and causes plant food poison.


Steven Harris: Yeah. What you and I grew up knowing was called conservation.


Jack Spirko: Correct. Exactly.


Steven Harris: It was the DNR. It was the Department of Natural Resources and you were a conservationist. You were looking at preserving what there and making it grow bigger. A forestry expert helps the forest richer and bigger by making the forest grow. Not by stopping us from doing our stuff. We all want that. The world is lusher and greener. Everything that you though in this world that is not a metal or mineral, every piece of wood you touch, every piece of you, your body that you touch, every piece of leather that you touch, it's structure comes from carbon. That came from something that grew. Either a plant grew then a cow ate it and then you ate the cow and that got turned into you. There is only one place that carbon comes from. It comes from carbon dioxide from photosynthesis from carbon dioxide in the air. Everything in this world has carbon in it. That carbon came from only one place, carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. You can put more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, you are putting in the fundamental building blocks of life into a greater abundance into the entire plant animal food cycle. It is proven, we are in a more animal and plant rich world today than our grandparents were because we have an increase in carbon dioxide. Any ways I didn't want to go off on a carbon dioxide...

« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 07:00:41 PM by Hootie »

Offline Hootie

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  • Just another day gardening in the heat of texas
    • Frozen Gardener
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2013, 02:15:13 PM »

Jack Spirko: I understand it. I try not to either. There is the whole saturation limit and everything else...


Steven Harris: I will mention one more thing on carbon. You mentioned coal. We are not going to be burning coal much longer. We are looking at decades in the future, where we will be into hydrogen fusion energy and more advanced stuff. Literally the world will be running on antimatter energy. Antimatter is not just Star Trek. Antimatter energy is real. The first antimatter is antihydrogen. The second anti matter is antihelium and we go right down the periodic table. That is all going to happen. You can't stop it. It will happen without any.... It is just like when we went from CRT monitors to flat panel displays. Was there people walking around saying, "CRT have lead. Bane CRT monitors. We got to have flat panel displays."? No, it was a natural evolution of man and invention. It was, "Oh here is a better product, a flat monitor."


Jack Spirko: It works better. It is lighter. When you get the scale of economy up it cost less


Steven Harris: Yep


Jack Spirko: It performs better. It has less waste. It is easier to recycle. You don't have to force that because if it is true people will buy it. I have a flat screen computer monitor. I imagine you do. I imagine you don't have one of those big tub things.


Steven Harris: I used to, until last week. Anyways... <Jack laughs> My point is we are going to go through all this energy invention. There is another whole field of invention, that is what you mention before, coal. We are going to take coal, which is carbon and we are going to turn it into carbon fibers. We are going to take natural gas, oil, coal, garbage, trees, and dead bunnies ran over on the road and turn them into carbon fiber. Our children and grandchildren will live in a world made out of carbon fiber, the same way you and I live in a world made out of steel and concrete today. That is one of the miracles of coal. It is an infinite resource for us. It is going to get turned into building, skyscrapers, and electrical wire. Carbon fiber can conduct electricity and it can not conduct electricity. It can be the insulation and it can be the conductor. Our car bodies will be made of carbon fiber. Our chairs, television screens bodies, and furniture and it will look like wood. It is a miracle what you can do will... That is enough about coal. That is a look forward in the future and what I promised you. What I really go to get back to and tell you about is something that doesn't work in the world of hydrogen. There are so many scam artist out there. They have drunk their own Kool-Aid and they believe this. That is the under hood hydrogen electrolyzer. You put this bottle underneath your hood, Jack, and you pour water into it. You hook it up to your intake sensor. It make hydrogen gas. It goes into your car and it gives you better fuel economy. It is complete bullshi..... bull crap. It is complete bull crap.


Jack Spirko: You can say bull shit on my show.


Steven Harris: I know, I am sorry. I am still try not too. But it is complete bull shit... They can't explain it, so lets put this name on it. Instead of it being H2 for hydrogen or H2O for water. Lets reform the words and call it HHO or HOH or OOH. Now that we have put this name on it... Now that we have called it magic beans, Jack it is magic beans, they now take on mystical powers. They cure cancer, they solve the energy crisis, and they make you run farther, and jump quicker. When you put a name on something it now takes on mystical properties.


Jack Spirko: Then we have what I call HHO placebo effect. You buy your HHO kit and instructions. It says do all this stuff and if you also techniques with driving then you will get even better miles. The guy does it and he starts taking slower acceleration and braking and doing more a little bit coasting. There are people called hypermilers.


Steven Harris: Yeah.


Jack Spirko: They do this with no modification and get 80 miles to the gallon because they are in my damn way and won't get out of the way doing 40 miles per hour on the highway. They do this and they say, "Look mile efficiency went up because of the HHO." No, it went up because you stopped putting your foot down like a brick.


Steven Harris: In fact I have documented really clearly in a newsletter I wrote. It was called, "Dirty Energy News" and it was issue number three. I will put a link on it at It will be a link to and it is letter number three. I talk about this in detail of why it doesn't work and why they see results. The short story is you take this box and these stainless steel electrical plates or stainless steel electrodes. People buy wall outlets plates and make them out of them. They hook up their battery, they get all these bubbles, and think "Oh I am making stuff." What they have made is very affordable inefficient electrolyzer, horribly horribly horribly inefficient. What happens to all the inefficiency? It gets turned into?... Anyone?... It gets turned into heat. They heat the water up. What happens when you get water above 212 degrees Fahrenheit?


Jack Spirko: It boils.


Steven Harris: It boils. One, you're under the hood compartment of your engine is generally at least at a temperature of what is coming off the radiator, which is over 200 degrees (Fahrenheit). That is enough to heat it up. You engine is well over 300 degrees (Fahrenheit) just from the running operation temperatures. You are also talking about exhaust heat that might be near the manifolds. You are talking about a lot of heat to boil the water. Plus all this electricity your are dumping into there that you think is giving you something, it is not. It is making heat, so you are making steam. You see these videos on YouTube where there is this gas coming out of. They say "This is HHO, man. Now I am going to power the planet. I am going to run my car for nothing." It is steam you idiot. Put a mirror in front of it and watch it condense, it is steam. Hydrogen does not condense. Oxygen does not condense. HHO, which doesn't exist, doesn't condense because it doesn't exist. It is steam. You have just made a steam injector. You piston is coming down on the intake cycle and it is sucking in fuel and sucking in air. Now it is sucking in whole slug of steam. Remember it has to run on a fuel to air ratio and this little thing called a O2 sensor that is going "Oh I have too much oxygen. Or no I don't have enough oxygen." What it does is it adjusts the fuel. When you though in too much steam and you have fuel and air, what was suppose to be the right ratio and you try to ignite it. You end up with a surplus of fuel being in the system because it has been unburnt because all the steam got in the way. The car goes "Oh, I am running rich. I am running rich." What does the car does?


Jack Spirko: Leans the fuel out.


Steven Harris: It leans the fuel out. It decreases your fuel for you. You got a cylinder that is sized... Let's say your cylinder is 1 liter. For some reason you have a 8 liter engine, so you cylinder is 1 liter. You are sucking in a liter full of air and fuel is being sprayed into it. Now you are sucking in a half liter of steam. What did you do? You just reduced the size of your cylinder. You took your Dodge Viper engine and you made it the size of a Geo Metro.


Jack Spirko: Basically, what you have done... When you bought your car you wanted horsepower.


Steven Harris: Yep


Jack Spirko: You bought the 190 horsepower V6. You put this thing on it and you turned it 120 horsepower 4 cylinder that you didn't want. Now you see you get better fuel efficiency, which you could have done by buying a 4 cylinder.


Steven Harris: Remember the last show, I told you about your fuel economy is all in your foot.


Jack Spirko: Correct.


Steven Harris: It is in how fast you accelerate and how fast you drive. If you put a block underneath your accelerator... <Jack laughs> I am serious. You put a piece of block wood so you can only drive 65 miles an hour down the highway on a flat road. If you do that you will see your fuel economy go up because you can no longer go from 0 to 60 in six seconds. You gotta go 0 to 60 in 16 seconds.


Jack Spirko: Safety disclaimer, don't actually do it because you might need to get out of away of the coal truck barreling down on you. This is for informational purposes only. <laughs>


Steven Harris: I have had people do it. There was this one idiot at Chrysler. They say hydrogen is pollution free. I say hydrogen is the most polluting fuel in the world because it causes mind pollution. It really just gets in your mind and corrupts it.


Jack Spirko: Is there any way people and utilize hydrogen at home? Is it worth the self production?


Steven Harris: Yeah in a certain extent it is. Go back to my previous show and listen to the GEK Gasifier from Jim Mason at I'll have a link at He is the only man and company in the world, and he does it non-profit, that has a production gasifier that is worth darn. They have classes three times a year. They put their gasifier on a generator they sell as pallet, no one else in the world does. They set it up there and put a 24 hour video camera on it for 72 hours. They let it run continuously while someone feeds the thing fuel all night, it runs and runs and runs and runs. If you have an abundance of wood, vegetable material, bushes, or mostly woody products available to you. It would be economical for you to get a gasifier and turn this into a gas and either use that to make electricity to then power your house, especially if you were off grid. Three shows ago I did something on all the economics of solar and solar compared to wind, solar compared gasifiers and gasifiers beat the hell out of it. You can also then have your generator power your electric compressor. The compressor can then compress this gas and put it into 3,000 or 5,000 PSI tanks that can go on to your car. You can then drive on it. Jack, I don't do this.


Jack Spirko: <laughs> If you don't do it then I am probably not going to do it either


Steven Harris: I am an expert in the field. I can do it. I don't have the time to do it because my time is better spent on things that have more of an immediate application, like alcohol to people. You are not doing it because your time is best dictated to what we are doing. There are other people out there who have an abundance of time and an abundance of wood. This would give them an advantage. The power pallet in itself is $17,000 all assembled and shipped to you and with a generator. You put the wood in it and turn it on and literally it runs. You got to be able to amortize off that cost of that $17,000. It sound expensive, but compared to solar photovoltaic it is six times cheaper. Yeah, there is for certain people at a certain place at a certain time who want to do this, you can do this. It can run your car. It can run your house. Again, you got to have that wood material available to you. Let me pull out my notes. Wood is cellulose. Cellulose is C6 H10 O5 it has 6 carbons joined with 10 hydrogen and 5 oxygen in it. Mother nature took the carbon dioxide from the air, water from the ground. It took C and O from the air, it took H2 and O from the water, and make C6 H10 O5 cellulose. That is not really tightly bound. How do you know this? Because with a match you can light it. When it burns you are actually braking down that bond. You are releasing the energy. The carbon is turning into carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. The hydrogen is turning into water. It is not like water. You can't take water and light it with a match and it will burn. That is a tightly bound molecule. Cellulose is a weakly bound molecule. It is easy for us to use easy chemistry to get these gasses out of our cellulose and to re-utilize it however we so desire. Again, I talk about that in previous shows. You can email me with any questions. Like I was saying, mother nature has done all the hard work for you. That is really stored sunshine. Burning wood is really the burning of stored sunshine. One of the interesting little about a flame, if you have a candle burning, Jack. You can actually take a glass tube, but it into the middle part of the flame and it will pull the hydrogen out. The Hydrogen will come out of the glass tube. You could theoretically collect it. It is a mouse fart, but you could theoretically collect it. <Jack laughs> You can probably find videos of this. You can ignite the hydrogen coming out of the glass tube and have this little blue flame burning out of the glass tube next to the yellow flame of the candle burning. It is just a tremendous world of chemistry. I have talked about this before. If you really want to a fun field to go into when you are young and going to college then go into chemistry, especially organic chemistry. It will open up an incredible world for you. What is our time? We have fuel cells to talk about, Jack.


Jack Spirko: We have been working through this monster list. Like in the matrix where plug the thing into your head. <Steven laughs> Then they just download information. These three episodes had just brought all of this stuff together. The last thing on your list is fuel cells. Is that the stuff we are going to plug into the Delorean and travel through time? Where are we at with fuel cell technology?


Steven Harris: Lets all join hands and sing "We are the world. We are the children." Fuel cells... We were supposed to have them in our house by 2010 and it is already 2012. I remember fuel cells in 1996 and 1997 they said, "We are going to have them in our house by the year 2000 and 2001." <laughs> What they do is they, in the simplest terms, take hydrogen in on one side, oxygen or air on the other side, and they produce electricity. People think they are these magical little black boxes. You shove hydrogen in and you shove oxygen in, you plug up with your house, and you get pure electricity. Fuel cells are like batteries. They make DC voltage. What do you have to do with DC voltage. You have to convert it to AC voltage for your house. Let alone, you have to convert it sinusoidal AC instead of square wave AC if you want to do it really right. You have to have a true sine wave converter. Fuel cells are not 100% efficient. Infact, really good fuel cells are about 40% efficiency. Jack, if you have a 40% efficient fuel cell, what id that other 60% getting turned into?


Jack Spirko: I have no idea, but it is waste as far as I am concerned.


Steven Harris: Heat.


Jack Spirko: Oh, ok.


Steven Harris: If you got electricity and you are spinning a motor and the motor is 85% efficient, the other 15% is being turned into heat. Everything in the world gets turned into heat. You take a ball and throw it across the room, it hits the floor, and bounces against the wall. That transfer of energy gets turned into heat when it hits something. It eventually stops bouncing because it turned all of its kinetic energy into thermal energy and now it is not moving any more. You drop a rock into a bucket full of water. It raises the temperature of water because the rock hit the water and the fallen energy turned into heat. All you waste energy turned into heat. In an internal combustion engine you have half the waste energy going out the tailpipe in the form of exhaust. The other half goes into cooling system, which goes into your radiator. Fuel cells don't have an exhaust system to get rid of half of their energy. All of their energy goes into heat. It goes into very low quality heat. Like, you can't get a PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) fuel cell above 180 degree Fahrenheit. You have all this waste 180 degree (Fahrenheit) temperature that you have to get rid of. That is why if you had a Geo Metro with a fuel cell in it, you would need a radiator that went into a Dodge Ram in the front of the darn thing to get rid of all the heat because it is really low grade heat that you have to get rid of. Fuel cells are not all that magical type of thing that you would think of that it would be for homes and business. There is this company called "Bloom Box" and the guy is a little wacko, but he has made a great fuel cell. He has suckered a lot of people into buying it, like Walmart and other places. What it does is that it converts natural gas. It is called a "solid oxide fuel cell." It runs a near a 1,000  degrees (Fahrenheit). What it does is it brings in air and it bring in natural gas. it cracks the natural gas into carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Then it oxidizes the carbon monoxide and hydrogen across the membrane which gives you free electrons to make electricity. He is selling these that have a lower efficiency than if you did it with a Cat Engine. It would be more efficient to use a Caterpillar Engine to run your generator to run your Walmart off of, then it would be to use the Bloom Box fuel cell. He is selling these things for 20 times the price of a Caterpillar Engine Generator. The thing is that they are supposed to be these quiet little boxes sit there, even though they have 5 million fans on them. You can run a internal combustion engine sewing machine quite if you wanted to. It is big play on different things. What fuel cells are really good at is small things, such as a thing called direct methanol fuel cell. You can look up DMFC on Wikipedia and read all about direct methanol fuel cells. It uses methanol on one side of the fuel cell and air on the other and produces a DV voltage. What is a DC voltage perfect for? It is perfect for using your laptop. It is perfect for running a flashlight. It is perfect for running a radio. It is perfect for re-charging AA batteries. It is perfect for a lot of different different things. All you literally have to do is pour methanol in on one side. Keep in mind, don't get methanol on your skin and don't drink it. It is toxic. All you need is air on the other side. It will be a quiet little box at that time because it's waste heat can be released through itself. When you get a huge amount of waste heat you need fans and radiators. When you have a small amount of waste heat, something the size of a baseball, it can get rid of that little bit of waste heat just by it becoming warm and giving up its temperature to the surrounding environment. Fuel cells have been long associated with hydrogen and only hydrogen, which is not true. They can run a variety of fuel. To give you an idea right now, in May of 2012, a 300 watt fuel cell... Keep in mind, you buy a 300 watt inverter that plugs into your car's batteries. Jack, you can buy one for $30 at Walmart, right?


Jack Spirko: Yeah, they are pretty cheap. I have got, I think, a 750 watt one that I paid $49 for.


Steven Harris: Here is a price comparison. A 300 watt fuel cell, guess how much it costs right now?


Jack Spirko: Umm.... I don't know, thousands of dollars?


Steven Harris: $2,700 dollars.


Jack Spirko: Holy crap.


Steven Harris: If you wanted to take a 5 horsepower Honda engine and put three alternators on it. Not to make 300 watts but to make 10 times that amount, 3 kilowatts of electricity. It would cost you less than $500. Probably less than $300 to do this.


Jack Spirko: I am think that I am more able to afford to pay a 14 year old to pedal a bicycle and generate power than pay freakin $2,700 for 300 watts.


Steven Harris: Right. They say, "But a fuel cell is more efficient." No, a internal combustion engine properly tuned to run on hydrogen can run at a higher brake thermal efficiency then a fuel cell. In fact a typical proton exchange membrane or a PEM fuel cell right now is about 40% to  45% efficient on a really good day. Guess what is made by the 10's of thousands every day that has a higher thermal efficiency than that fuel cell does?


Jack Spirko: Regular engines?


Steven Harris: Nope. Direct injection diesel engines.


Jack Spirko: Sure. Absolutely


Steven Harris: VW, Mercedes Benz,...


Jack Spirko: Like my TDI. That is far more efficient.


Steven Harris: That is right, you have a TDI.


Jack Spirko: Yeah.


Steven Harris: Yeah, that is one of the most efficient engines ever made on the face of the planet, is that Volkswagen TDI.


Jack Spirko: It is an amazingly small engine for what it does too. The torque is incredible. It is about as big as two of my tea kettles put together. I have a 100,000 or so miles on it and it is just getting started.


Steven Harris: It is just getting broken in. I drive a diesel truck, a 2001 Dodge Ram, it has 279,000 miles on it. The engine has never been touched. I just put Mobile One in it all the time and change it every 10,000 miles. It keeps on running and running and running. I change the fuel filter as often as I can because remember with diesels the thing that is more complex in the engine itself is the fuel injector. You want to treat your fuel injector really good. You make sure you change your fuel filters because the fuel injector is really the heat of a diesel engine. I cover that in another show. Go back and listen to all my shows. They are at I will link into everything at Jacks site and show number 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. You can look at them up to number 8 now. You can hear us talk about diesels. Yeah Jack, amazing. They think they are going to hold hands singing "We are the world" and fuel cells are going to change the world. Here diesel fuel and VW engines have a higher efficiency than the fuel cells that people are making. Don't hold you breath on fuel cells. You will see them coming out to power small electronics, Be wary of the one that say they are going to power your house. Le someone else be the sucker and buy the thing first and see how it goes.


Jack Spirko: Trust me, if someone ever builds one you will know about it and it will work. We will talk about it. Then we can buy one. Until then we will stick to what we know works.


Steven Harris: Bloom has tried to do it. He had a big 60 minutes interview in 2009. He said by 2011 we are going to have these for homes. Hey, it is 2012. Where are you?


Jack Spirko: Where is mine? I ain't got one yet. We have pretty much clabbered hydrogen and fuel cells today. I just wanted to really quickly give you the opportunity let people know what is the status. One of the things we can make at how fairly easily is ethanol. we have talked about it before, so we don't need to go into the process or anything. You were working on some things. There was an enzym you were working on getting availability for. Is it available yet? What does it do? If not yet, then when?


Steven Harris: As of early May 2012, it is not available yet. It is still sitting on my lab bench. I have not had a chance yet to run it. For everyone that doesn't know what it does, you can convert donuts and bread into sugar. The sugar then gets fermented by the yeast into alcohol. All alcohol is made from sugar. It is just a question of what you make sugar from. In this case it is going to be donuts. You used to have to cook it up to 190 (degrees fahrenheit), add an enzyme, cool down to 140 (degrees fahrenheit), add enzyme number two, cool it down to 85 (degrees fahrenheit), then add the yeast, and let it ferment. I have an enzyme that allows you to add the enzyme and the yeast both at 85 degrees fahrenheit. It will convert the bucket full of donuts and water into sugar which is instantaneously fermented. It is called "simultaneous saccharification and fermentation," or SSF.  It will ferment it into a bucket full of alcohol ready to go into your still and be distilled. I have not had a chance to finish this because I have been overwhelmed with sales of the alcohol distiller. I have an automated table top distiller. I looks like a coffee pot. You plug it into a wall and a timer. You pour in your wash with alcohol in it, you set a timer, and come back to a jar full of alcohol. You then distill three more times, then you take the water out with Zeolite, and you pour it into your gas tank. This and the complete video where I show you how to do this for nothing, is at For people who can't remember, there will be a link to it at I don't think you will forget I have previous show entirely on alcohol. I think it was show number 5. That is at You can go back and listen to it. It is about two weeks right now. If you come and order an alcohol distiller right now, the 2nd week of May 2012. It is taking me about two weeks to get them out to you. I got all the stills in stock, Jack. What happen is my supplier ran out of hydrometers.


Jack Spirko: Ha..


Steven Harris: I had to get more hydrometers rushed in. Then the fermentation buckets came in and they were squished. I had to say,"Hey, send more buckets. These ones are are oblong and they won't work. <Jack laughs> You have pallets of stuff coming in.


Jack Spirko: Oblong buckets...


Steven Harris: Yeah, they are oblong. I have not had a problem getting the stills in. It has just been the little stuff. You order the starter kit. I sell everything to you that you want. I can sell you the book, "Alcohol Can Be a Gas." It has everything you need to know to do it for yourself, it is $47. There is a DVD that comes along with it if you want. If you want the distiller, I will sell distiller. If you want everything in a kit with a starter kit with yeast, instruction, the video how to do fermentation, and the Zeolite for removing the water I am going to provide you the entire kit if you so desire. You can come and buy the book and do it all yourself. You can come and buy the kit. However you want. It is allicart. That is what I started doing Jack. Instead of just buying books and DVDs, I started to providing a solution. People said, "Steve, we want the solution. We don't want to figure out how to build it ourselves. We want you to provide a solution." I had to go out find something. I found this moonshine still. I it is made for making moonshine, literally drinking alcohol that is illegal in The United States. It is legal in New Zealand, people still do it. So I  look at this little thing. It is small, good, and runs 1 gallon at a time and that is not good. It doesn't use any cooling water because it uses a fan, that is good. If I put a timer on this thing, I can fill it full and walk away from this thing and come back. I would fill the thing up before went to work and when I came back I would have half a gallon of alcohol. I would fill it up when I came back from work and let it run for 2 hours, then I would have more alcohol. I would fill it up again before I went to bed at night, set the timer, and I would have another half gallon of alcohol. This is cool. They thing that you think would be the worst thing in the world just became the best thing in the world because I have added a timer to it.


Jack Spirko: I would like to speak up on that for you, because I get a lot of people that say it only makes this much and is it really work? I have got one you sent to me and it works great. You came make a couple gallons of fuel a week with it. If you get your starch for free... And that is what I am exited about this enzyme when you finally get it available. My question is what else can you stick in your house that makes 2 gallons of fuel a week for you? And the answer is not much. Especially when it is dump, stir, ferment, dump, push button, come back, dump, and push button untill you get the level you want. The other thing that I love about what you have done is the first time you came on after you found this thing, you had the still and the hydrometer. Then you came back and you added the Zeolite to get the last of the water you. They you came back and found this enzyme. You continue to evolve this kit into what I consider a total solution. Which is what most companies never freakin do. They give you half a solution.


Steven Harris: It have been because of your people. You people and my people they come back to me and go, "Steve what about this?" Well you are right, I should have provided that. I listen to you guys. I am not just sitting here talking into this microphone just to hear it reverberate in my ears. My god, you guys you are a treasure. You are so excited. You love this stuff. You are passionate about it. I call it the church of Jack. You come here to learn. Then you write me these emails to say, "What about this." Well, ok I will have to explain this and that. Hey there is a good idea. I could do this. People write me with suggestions saying, "What about this. That doesn't work, but I kicks me on to something else that does work." It is all because you guys. This stuff has evolved because of you. All of you listening. I have a great big heart filled thanks. I come on to this show because you guy are so great. If I didn't get the emails and the panel questions, the 800 number stuff that you call in. "Hey Jack and Steve, I have a question on batteries." If I didn't get that stuff I wouldn't be doing this.


Jack Spirko: Yeah


Steven Harris: You guys get as much out of us and you put into the show.


Jack Spirko: I wan to say another thing for steve, because I know he won't say it for himself. We were talking off air before we got started. I sent him a panel question recently. He put about a half day of effort into it with coming up with a solid answer for one person asking one question. That is why I am glad to have you as a member of this community, Steve. I want to through a plug in for you here at the end of as well. When you are an MSB member, if you go into your benefit section and you will see USH2 in the list of supporting venders. You will see that Steve gives a 15% off on all purchases of books and DVDs to all MSB members. That is only something that I had to ask him to do one time on his first interview and he said, "Of course." And Steve?


Steven Harris: And right now for a limited time the MSB discount applies to the alcohol distiller. You can literally come to me and get the $400 package that includes the distiller, the yeast, the 8 gallons fermenting bucket, the hydrometer, the thermometer, the hydrometer flask, the Zeolite, the alcohol can be a gas book and DVD, plus my private videos that show you how to put this all together and you can get 15% off. Which means you are getting over $60 off with your MSB discount right from the big package or the small package. If you want to buy the DVD for $25 you then get 15% off of that.


Jack Spirko: Which of course would pay for your MSB plus $10. Let me throw my own little plug in right now, because I didn't say it in the intro of the show. I am in Montana right now, even though Steve and I are here talking to you. We are talking to you from the past, time travel <steven laughs> from Arkansas and Illinois. Right now because I am away, whenever I go away I leave a sale. Right now with the code "BIG SKY" you get $15 off the MSB. You could quite literally profit extensively by getting an MSB then getting the discount just on Steve's kit.


Steven Harris: Wow, it is only $35 for a membership.


Jack Spirko: $35 for your first year with the code "BIG SKY" and that is until I get back on the 13th. That is wide open to anybody. Basicly I did it because I had to board two dogs and 2 cars while I was gone for 12 days. That is freaking expensive. That is almost as expensive as a hydrogen freaking fuel cell. <Steve laughs> I am running that sale to cover the kennel fees on the dogs and the cats while I am hanging out with Paul Wheaton and Sepp Holzer and a bunch of really cool people.


Steven Harris: I bet you there are some listeners who would have come over and house sat your cats for nothing for you while you were gone.


Jack Spirko: Yeah, I don't know man. There is an Opsec component to what we do. Steve again, thank you for being here today. I will make sure I have links to all your sites and all you stuff. The fact that you continue to innovate and give to the community is really important to me and I appreciate you for it.


Steven Harris: You guys are the best. I love it. I can't wait to come for my 9th show. I am doing at least two panel questions right now, which will hear in the future. They are really awesome ones. I look forward to hearing from on the panel and hopefully a future show. Jack you are wonderful and the audience is wonderful. Love you guys all. Thanks so much.


Jack Spirko: Alright folks with that this has been Jack Spirko today along with Steven Harris, helping you to figure out how to live that better life, if times get tough or even if they don't.

<Closing song>