Author Topic: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries  (Read 61818 times)

Offline Smurf Hunter

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7172
  • Karma: 334
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2015, 04:20:39 PM »
Not cost effective any way you look at it.
And here in Las Vegas, there will be no more solar installs permitted after this month based on an arbitrary cap by NVEnergy.

I assume that's limited to grid-tied.  Seems if you wanted to setup panels on your RV or trailer for camping, that should be permissible.

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 716
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2015, 04:27:24 PM »
I assume that's limited to grid-tied.  Seems if you wanted to setup panels on your RV or trailer for camping, that should be permissible.

They are afraid people will suck up all of the sun's energy. 8)

It is interesting use of technology,but with no economical gain....yet.

nkawtg

  • Guest
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2015, 04:31:59 PM »
That's correct, no more permits for grid-tied systems.

On the plus side, I did some calling around and learned that most solar mini-split air conditioners are not grid-tied. It's a hybrid system. The mini-split still requires a 220 connection but they are also supplied with DC current direct from the panels.
The built in controller determines how much household current is needed to make up what isn't supplied by the panels. If the panels are producing all that's needed, only about 60 - 80 watts of household power is needed.
Three 300 watt panels should provide enough for a 1 ton mini-split.

Here in Las Vegas, cooling is our biggest energy suck and since this type of unit isn't grid-tied could be a big seller in town.

Bonnieblue2A

  • Guest
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2015, 04:52:15 PM »
The drama continues.  Per Bloomberg report today (Black Monday).   Hedge fund manager Jim Chanos triggers a rout of SolarCity Corp. stock to a 22 month low by calling it a "subprime finance company".  Musk increases his personal holdings by 123,510 shares (0.6%) on the news of Chanos's short.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-24/elon-musk-buys-5-million-of-solarcity-shares-after-plunge

 :popcorn:





nkawtg

  • Guest
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2015, 05:39:25 PM »
That's correct, no more permits for grid-tied systems.
Correction, permits will still be issued, however home solar generation customers who install solar after the cap will be as much as 40% more on their power bill.
The cap was reached last week.
The higher rate for new solar producers will essentially wipe out the solar business in Nevada.

Ironic that, as obama came to Vegas today to speak at the National Clean Energy Summit at Mandalay Bay.

Offline FreeLancer

  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 6712
  • Karma: 820
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2016, 11:51:17 PM »
This dude's building his own Powerwall for a few hundred bucks using 600 salvaged laptop cells.

https://youtu.be/Bk50IuWXg-c

nkawtg

  • Guest
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2016, 06:13:09 AM »
Correction, permits will still be issued, however home solar generation customers who install solar after the cap will be as much as 40% more on their power bill.
The cap was reached last week.
The higher rate for new solar producers will essentially wipe out the solar business in Nevada.

Update:
The Public Utilities Commission has voted to eliminate the cap and increase fees and rates for all existing and future solar producers. They also voted to lower the buyback rate of surplus power to below wholesale prices.
In effect they killed solar in Nevada

Offline Jeremy Downing

  • Senior Survivalist
  • ****
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: 3
  • Poodle loving prepper
    • Jeremy Downing's Blog
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2016, 06:29:18 AM »
If I were trying to homestead in Nevada, after first wondering where my water was going to come from, I'd probably just not attach my property to the grid. Take all the investment for solar and enjoy all the reward.

Offline Chemsoldier

  • Pot Stirrer
  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 5882
  • Karma: 550
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #98 on: September 08, 2016, 12:03:55 AM »
The first powerwall user in Australia talks about his system and how it is working out.


http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-27/six-months-on-how-is-the-tesla-powerwall-working/7664450

Offline jerseyboy

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
  • Karma: 28
  • Garden State Prepper
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #99 on: September 08, 2016, 06:03:55 AM »
The first powerwall user in Australia talks about his system and how it is working out.


http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-27/six-months-on-how-is-the-tesla-powerwall-working/7664450

Not bad.  I never heard of solar panels paying off in three years.  I always thought is was more like 10.

 Hopefully the price of these batteries come down.  Still quite a chunk of change.

This guy has Carl's philosophy, reduce usage to save money.  I think the monitoring makes all of the difference. When you sit in ignorant bliss of your energy usage, you consume more.

Jerseyboy

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 716
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #100 on: September 08, 2016, 06:25:44 AM »
But Mr Martin cautioned  were still a costly option.

"The thing that is common to these battery banks is they still don't make sense from a pure financial perspective," he said.

"Pretty much none of them will pay for themselves before the warranty expires."


If I paid $16,000 for panels,,this is over 25 years worth of my average power bill...the system is NOT economical ,even in a country where power costs THREE TIMES THE US AVERAGE.

Offline mountainmoma

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4728
  • Karma: 223
  • suburban homesteader
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #101 on: September 08, 2016, 09:54:33 AM »
Not bad.  I never heard of solar panels paying off in three years.  I always thought is was more like 10.

 Hopefully the price of these batteries come down.  Still quite a chunk of change.

This guy has Carl's philosophy, reduce usage to save money.  I think the monitoring makes all of the difference. When you sit in ignorant bliss of your energy usage, you consume more.

Jerseyboy

SOlar panels only pay off n three years for very wasteful houses who were using ALOT of electriicity. So, these are houses which did not reduce their power.

I have solar and am amazed at how the average installation these days is for 4x the amount of kWh of mine, or more !!

I put mine in 16 years ago, but if I was looking at the situation today, it would be the last thing I did, and I likely wouldnt do it at all.

Instead of looking at how you meet your home needs now, and paying a fortune in panels, look at your needs and how to meet them without relying on external inputs, as much as possible, especially for critical needs.

SO, you look at (1) shelter ( which includes being out of the weather and temperature moderation, and on person clothing)
(2) Food preparation, processing and storage
(3)communications
(4) Sanitation. Waste dealt with safely and cleaning of people/clothes/dishes
(4) lighting (which in an emergency, you may cover in different ways or not use much at all)
(5) extra, gadgets, entertainment

critcal needs should have more than one way to cover that need, 3 is good.

Many ways to do all these, topic for another thread, but for me to meet these (my resources and location),
-I would first keep my wood stove (space heat, back up cooking and back up hot water)
-I would add biogas generation for cooking and back-up hot water ( not very expensive to implement, esp compared to solar photovoltaic),
-I would keep my solar hot water,
-I would keep using my solar ovens and sun dehydration methods I use in the summer months,
-I would keep having a water storage tank for my well, but I would change well power to direct DC pump with a couple dedicated PV panels, to would pump to the tank when the sun was out, I would add a manual pump alongside the well pump for back up, there are ones that can go deep
- I would keep expanding my non-refrigerated (or frozen) food preservtion techniques, I might build a small root cellar, that could double as a storm(tornado) shelter
- I would tighten up the house alot to keep temperature extremes of heat and cold out, including warm windows shades, "cool roof" on house, trellis and shading, etc..... Same for people, I would continue to acclimate myslef to seasonal variations of temp. and continue to insulate my person accordingly
- If I was hooked to the grid and couldnt afford it yet, I would not add whole house solar, I would look to having a few low cost ways to get electricity for essentials in a power outage, car inverter, small solar and a few batteries, etc... focus here on communication needs
- If I could afford it, and everything else on the list was covered, I would put in a small whole house solar electric, why not ? The amount I would need at this point would be small, and I do like my washing machine, refrigerator, lights and communication. And, I would want battery back up, and I would buy one that lasts a long time, if I could afford it. But, I would bypass the power wall, which is over hyped, and I would go with a SMALL amount of backup from Iron Edison or Aquion.

Offline mountainmoma

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4728
  • Karma: 223
  • suburban homesteader
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #102 on: September 08, 2016, 10:15:01 AM »
A note on batteries.

Batteries never pay for themselves on any level. Battery based power is always expensive, ie., a light bub in a socket uses less power than your flashlight. We have batteries to provide power when there is no other way to get it. So, of course they do not have a "pay back" !

There is an artificial system in place, at this moment, that people with money can get subsidies from the power companies or governments and play games about when they store, use, sell back, etc.... to make batteries appear pay for themselves, but realy it is everyone else who shares the payment of them. Yes, I do know the argument of them possibly being cheaper than another pwoer plant being built, but I have not researched the real data on this, so I dont know, so many variables and hidden costs on all sides.

That said, batteries can be very convenient to do things like give us portable power where we want it, but this is NOT less expensive than being plugged in, it is just more convenient. Batteries are also good to store power and give it to us later, so convenient, but again more expensive.

I have battery back up for my house. I have this for power outages. It has turned out to be expensive. Doesnt mean you should or shouldnt do it, just means they do not create money or wealth of any type, they are a consumption product for convenience. They do not create power, they use resources and power to be made. If you can afford batteries for a power outage, this is a reasonable thing to do. Your generator does not pay for itself either, it is an expense, and different solutions work for different people.

My particular solar system is a hybrid one, and does not work without batteries. No batteries and I cannot get solar power out of my system, like all off grid ones. I have sunk costs, ie., resources have already been used for panels and inverter that have many years of life left. So, while their are many ways to solve this, and the right solution does vary by location, temperatures, health of the owner to maintain, etc.... for my needs of all that, when I researched, I bought 3 small Aquion S-stacks, (and took the state government rebate), but they do not pay for themselves. But, they do mean I have electric lights at night, and can power various things when the sun is covered by storm and rain clouds

Do look at Aquion if you were thinking power wall....

As for the entire Photovoltaic costs of mine, it is this : I have had the system for 16 years, I spent $11k dollars on it, including batteries, as I did as Carl said and reduced everywhere first. I killed batteries a few times as I did not maintain them or monitor them, and also, lead acid only lasts so long, so add in more money over the years for that, but I only kept 4 12V batteries, so small battery bank. All told, lets say spent less than $800/year, which is less than $67somthing dollars a month. With Californias electric rate structure (PG and E) I have, over all, spent less money having solar electric than I would have done. I especially spent less tho because of solar hot water too. My house is all electric, including hot water and cooking.

My inverter and panels where made in America and are very sturdy, and I expect that I will have another 10 or 15 years, and I do thnk alot could/will happen with society, costs, reliability of grid power. ANd, my system is here for me, and I like that piece of mind. Also, with the new Aqions, I wont have any more expenses for alot of yeras, so that 67/month over time will be alot less averaged out. ANd, as I am on pension and that is on shaky grounds, this power is now paid for -- paid ahead and their for me

I just dont think it is all about paying for itself. Like my house or my car, all durable goods are an expense. Quite frankly, the solar system has been less of a money drian, and more reliable on always working, than the hosue or car
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 10:36:03 AM by mountainmoma »

Offline Greekman

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4050
  • Karma: 207
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2016, 10:25:01 AM »
I would like to add one more parameter in solar viability. the cost of bringing power to your home.

at least overhere, bringing power a mile away rom the main line 9liek in a farm) is considerable expense and solar makes sense fast.
In the summer we visit our neighboors at their summer (farm) house. they are strictly solar but at the enpanse of an electrical oven and an electrical water heater (non-issue at our summer)

Offline mountainmoma

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4728
  • Karma: 223
  • suburban homesteader
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #104 on: September 08, 2016, 10:40:44 AM »
I would like to add one more parameter in solar viability. the cost of bringing power to your home.

at least overhere, bringing power a mile away rom the main line 9liek in a farm) is considerable expense and solar makes sense fast.
In the summer we visit our neighboors at their summer (farm) house. they are strictly solar but at the enpanse of an electrical oven and an electrical water heater (non-issue at our summer)

exactly. But, having electricity is a convenience that we like, we could live without it. But, we like it and so far can afford to have some. Having electric power is an expense is all I mean. One of many expenses we have.

I realy, realy like my washing machine ! ANd, electric lights. None of this pays for itself is all, we pay for it.

ANd, yes, it is less expensive to have onsite solar electric generation than to pay a power company to run wires to a new house. That is the same out here too

But, less expensive doesnt mean it pays for itself

Offline mountainmoma

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4728
  • Karma: 223
  • suburban homesteader
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #105 on: September 08, 2016, 10:45:16 AM »
These work in high temperatures, which the power wall does not like, and are not a hazard in a fire :

http://aquionenergy.com/businesses-utilities/maintenance-free-battery/

this article is 2 years old, and I dont have time to look for more recent reviews. But, they cannot make them fast enough, they are being installed all over, I have installed them even, so it did prove out. Elon musk just has a fantastic PR team or something..... Even Real Goods, where I bought them, the tech's like these way, way better than what they hear of power wall..... just saying

and, these Aquions were very easy to hook up to an existing location (one that already had batteries, like mine) total DIY operation

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/524466/storing-the-sun/

Offline Jeremy Downing

  • Senior Survivalist
  • ****
  • Posts: 209
  • Karma: 3
  • Poodle loving prepper
    • Jeremy Downing's Blog
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #106 on: September 08, 2016, 01:00:21 PM »
These work in high temperatures, which the power wall does not like, and are not a hazard in a fire :

http://aquionenergy.com/businesses-utilities/maintenance-free-battery/

this article is 2 years old, and I dont have time to look for more recent reviews. But, they cannot make them fast enough, they are being installed all over, I have installed them even, so it did prove out. Elon musk just has a fantastic PR team or something..... Even Real Goods, where I bought them, the tech's like these way, way better than what they hear of power wall..... just saying

and, these Aquions were very easy to hook up to an existing location (one that already had batteries, like mine) total DIY operation

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/524466/storing-the-sun/

I'd like two of those 48M's. How much are they?

Answered my own question: https://www.civicsolar.com/product/aquion-energy-m110-ls83-battery-stack

Somewhere in the neighborhood of $16,575 each. Screw it, i'll take 4. lol.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 01:06:03 PM by Jeremy Downing »

Offline mountainmoma

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4728
  • Karma: 223
  • suburban homesteader
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #107 on: September 08, 2016, 01:39:04 PM »
I'd like two of those 48M's. How much are they?

Answered my own question: https://www.civicsolar.com/product/aquion-energy-m110-ls83-battery-stack

Somewhere in the neighborhood of $16,575 each. Screw it, i'll take 4. lol.

Why do you think you need the 48M's ? The M stands for Module, that is a prewired pallet of their standard, stand alone battery which is the S stack. I have 3 S stacks....... which was a little more money than 4 12V Trojan solar bateries, but will last a lot longer, so actually less expensive over the long run even if there wasnt a CA rebate, similar price to buying a few Iron Edison batteries.

https://www.civicsolar.com/product/aquion-energy-s20-p08f-battery-stack

Like I said before, batteries do not pay for themselves. Wether your needs or concerns warrant buying any depends on each ppersons circumstance.

In my mind, I only want and can afford enough to take care of household basic needs for a 4 day storm or such, other people want something else.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 01:50:02 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline Smurf Hunter

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7172
  • Karma: 334
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #108 on: September 08, 2016, 02:01:43 PM »
Why do you think you need the 48M's ? The M stands for Module, that is a prewired pallet of their standard, stand alone battery which is the S stack. I have 3 S stacks....... which was a little more money than 4 12V Trojan solar bateries, but will last a lot longer, so actually less expensive over the long run even if there wasnt a CA rebate, similar price to buying a few Iron Edison batteries.

https://www.civicsolar.com/product/aquion-energy-s20-p08f-battery-stack

Like I said before, batteries do not pay for themselves. Wether your needs or concerns warrant buying any depends on each ppersons circumstance.

In my mind, I only want and can afford enough to take care of household basic needs for a 4 day storm or such, other people want something else.

Assuming grid power is already readily available at a location and the rates are +/-20% of the average in the USA, it will usually take DECADES for most alternative energy systems to break even.
Where any type of off-grid closed system shines (pun intended) are applications where grid power is unavailable.  Boats, RVs, small private islands, etc.

If you are millionaire and want the very best for your SHTF bunker, these might be a consideration.

Offline mountainmoma

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4728
  • Karma: 223
  • suburban homesteader
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #109 on: September 08, 2016, 02:11:14 PM »
Assuming grid power is already readily available at a location and the rates are +/-20% of the average in the USA, it will usually take DECADES for most alternative energy systems to break even.
Where any type of off-grid closed system shines (pun intended) are applications where grid power is unavailable.  Boats, RVs, small private islands, etc.

If you are millionaire and want the very best for your SHTF bunker, these might be a consideration.

Yep, it is a thread about Elon Musk and Power walls, Elon Musk is all about brand name showing off, like Teslas....power walls...... pricey stuff for people with money.

That said, my grid tied system has more than broke even, even including batteries, and even that the latest batteries are Aquion S stacks. I showed that up thread a ways, and my system has alot of life left, and so will end up even less averaged over its life.

But, I live in California, and you live in Washington state. Grid power prices are way different. CA ( and Hawaii even more so) is above your +/- 20% of nationwide average electric rates. So, that is one reason I didnt spend more than I would have otherwise.

And, I already did an amazing amount of conservation first, and I have what is considered a very small set up, but that meets this houeholds needs

Offline mountainmoma

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4728
  • Karma: 223
  • suburban homesteader
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #110 on: September 08, 2016, 02:16:59 PM »
Assuming grid power is already readily available at a location and the rates are +/-20% of the average in the USA, it will usually take DECADES for most alternative energy systems to break even.
Where any type of off-grid closed system shines (pun intended) are applications where grid power is unavailable.  Boats, RVs, small private islands, etc.

If you are millionaire and want the very best for your SHTF bunker, these might be a consideration.

The majority of Real Goods customers are off grid, and so according to the Tech's there, these are selling like hotcakes for the off grid. Even the off grid broke hippish ones. But those do not buy the pallatized M modules, they buy a few S stacks, like I did.

So, not just for the rich because they are cheaper over time than the Trojan Solar batteries.

And, what is relevant for THIS thread, is that they are prefered by the humble normal solar battery buyers who are not into name branding, than the Power Walls.

They are considered better than the power walls, for many reasons, but you guys have never heard of them, because of PR for Elon Musk and anything he says or does

Offline Carl

  • Mr HamTastic!
  • Forum Veteran
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Karma: 716
  • COW?...No ,I haven't seen your cow.
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #111 on: September 08, 2016, 02:34:21 PM »
MountainMomma,not because you agree with me,but because of your great solar information as someone who has done it...KARMA

Offline DonC

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • Karma: 35
  • We have met the Enemy and he is us......
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #112 on: September 08, 2016, 02:54:42 PM »
MountainMomma,

You hit the nail on the  head! I have a solar setup as well. It's a convenience and nothing more! It's so I can brew coffee, watch some movies, and power some lights and a fan! Nothing more, Nothing less! Sure, these ideas sound good in a video, But as you said, they're for those with money to burn!!!!!! Carl and I had discussed at great length several times! It's nice to hear someone half way across the country can come up with the same philosophy! KUDOS/KARMA!!

Offline Smurf Hunter

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7172
  • Karma: 334
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #113 on: September 08, 2016, 03:22:06 PM »
Yep, it is a thread about Elon Musk and Power walls, Elon Musk is all about brand name showing off, like Teslas....power walls...... pricey stuff for people with money.

That said, my grid tied system has more than broke even, even including batteries, and even that the latest batteries are Aquion S stacks. I showed that up thread a ways, and my system has alot of life left, and so will end up even less averaged over its life.

But, I live in California, and you live in Washington state. Grid power prices are way different. CA ( and Hawaii even more so) is above your +/- 20% of nationwide average electric rates. So, that is one reason I didnt spend more than I would have otherwise.

And, I already did an amazing amount of conservation first, and I have what is considered a very small set up, but that meets this houeholds needs

Did you include any tax incentive or rebates?

Offline mountainmoma

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4728
  • Karma: 223
  • suburban homesteader
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #114 on: September 08, 2016, 04:39:54 PM »
Did you include any tax incentive or rebates?

There wasnt much of that 16-17 years ago, no tax breaks at all, a very small rebate, maybe 2k (?) in that range, which would not have changed the numbers by very much at all( in the range of $2 or 3 a month so far, which is lowered to $1 or less a month over entire system lifespan). It is interesting to me that supposedly panel prices have fallen in 16 years, but installed systems are way, way more expensive ! I wonder about this phenomena, actually. As far as I can see, it is for 2 reasons, the main one being that people are installing MUCH larger systems than we used to, so since someone else is helping to pay for it, they do not spend other money on conservation and such, they keep everything n the house the same, and put in a huge solar setup. Second one is that the installation companies, and electronics companies are takng more of a profit. A self installed, smaller system may well still have a lower price. I did a small amount of shopping around when I make choices, then too, for example the panels I bought (Astro-power 100W) were 2nds, cosmetically blemished, that shaved off a few dollars. The early solar install companies were smaller outfits, they had less employees, for example, an owner and a few others, all of whom actually did work, not some corporation like solar city, I think my installer was efficient. I know that my equipment has shown itself to be robust.  My inverter and charge controller were actually manufactured in California. I see cheaper inverters were used later, grid tie only, which means now they are trying to sell a "next layer" of equipment to households to add on battery back up (islanding) capabilites, which is what this thread is about, and that the projected lifespan of equipment is less, so the inintial cost is less, but doesnt last as long or do as much as mine from that long ago.

So, mostly people are just putting in way larger solar systems, and not doing conservation. Secondly, people are financing their systems, so they have interest charges. I paid for my system with cash 16 years ago, I sold a house to buy this one, and I just put a slightly smaller down payment on the house, and paid the solar outright.

Offline mountainmoma

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4728
  • Karma: 223
  • suburban homesteader
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #115 on: September 08, 2016, 04:48:00 PM »
this is $7k. No rebaes required for that price, a bit smaller than mine, but gets the point across, now how much do you realy think it can/should cost to have a crew put this up ? Or, do it yourself.

http://realgoods.com/real-goods-solar-pv-kit-1750w


Now, this one is much bigger than mine, for $11k

http://realgoods.com/real-goods-solar-pv-kit-3500w

if it were me, I would swap out hte batteries for the Aquion before buyng, for a couple thousand more. Because I would have alot less headaches and not have to replace as soon.

But, you can see, that it is alot less expensive than the solar city/elon musk combo that they are selling to the silicon valley upthe penensula people

So, why are people paying more than 10k and not even having the option for any amount of battery backp ? Because that is waht the solar installers are selling. Why are they paying so much ? They are paying for too much solar and not doing conservation measures around the house.

should everyone install solar ? no

people in my area pay hundreds a month for electric bills, and often average .3/kWh, sometimes more
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 04:55:58 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline Smurf Hunter

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7172
  • Karma: 334
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #116 on: September 08, 2016, 05:43:56 PM »
I think after taxes I pay $0.118/kwh

Base rate is around $0.08/kwh

And it's already fall, so the sun is gone until next June anyhow :(

endurance

  • Guest
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2016, 10:09:49 AM »
Having just finished a week in the Nevada desert where there was no grid to speak of and watching the various solutions people use to manage the lack of plug and play power, it's all a matter of scale.  For me, I just wanted enough light to not be a total darkwad, be able to find things at night in my kit, and charge my phone every day.  An ample supply of AA and AAA batteries and a phone charger that plugged into my cigarette lighter worked brilliantly for nine straight days.  I bought ice for chilling my drinks and food every other day.

A neighboring camp had a solar panel for a deep cycle battery that powered their LED light strips in their canopy all night.  Worked brilliantly and could have been sustained for years.

Another neighbor used a 4kw generator to run a microwave, swamp cooler, lighting, refrigerator, and air compressor.  He used a little more than 2.5 gallons of gasoline a day.

When it comes to energy "needs" and priorities, for me, it's evident that in the long run the thing we will miss the most is refrigeration and freezing and for many households, their refrigerator accounts for 25-40% of their monthly energy bill.  That's why one of my first investments was a solar freezer, a Sundanzer 8.1 cu.ft. freezer.  If I wanted to run my kitchen refrigerator, I'd need a huge solar array, probably 800 watts of panels, a large inverter and large battery bank.  The sundanzer can run on a 75w panel and two 55ah deep cycle batteries.

Otherwise, what is important to me is lighting and with USB rechargeable lithium cells for my headlamps and flashlights, along with some select solar led lights around the home, I think it's quite easy to scale that back.  Power tools are obviously a hugely beneficial item to have, so rechargeable tools and a big enough inverter to run a table saw, skilsaw, and milling machine off a deep cycle battery would extend these items for years to come.

Trying to run an entire house on solar, especially on battery power for reserves, I think will never be cost effective.  With that said, I'd never want to be without a 200w panel, charge controller a couple deep cycle batteries and a large inverter.

Offline Greekman

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4050
  • Karma: 207
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #118 on: September 09, 2016, 10:37:11 AM »
the commend on refrigeration needs is enlightening. thanks!

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5432
  • Karma: 370
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Elon Musk, Solar, Home Batteries
« Reply #119 on: March 11, 2017, 07:28:19 AM »
We have batteries to provide power when there is no other way to get it. So, of course they do not have a "pay back" !
...
Yes, I do know the argument of them possibly being cheaper than another pwoer plant being built, but I have not researched the real data on this, so I dont know, so many variables and hidden costs on all sides.

Looks like we have our first full scale experience to look at.  Should be interesting. Solar + battery is delivering at 13.9 cents per KWH which is half the cost of current diesal based electricity for the island.  So it looks like a positive payback for remote applications now.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/10/teslas-kauai-solar-storage-facility-offers-a-glimpse-of-the-companys-future/

More cool images:

http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/8/14854858/tesla-solar-hawaii-kauai-kiuc-powerpack-battery-generator

Tesla built a huge solar energy plant on the island of Kauai