The Survival Podcast Forum

Armory, Self Defense, And EDC => Firearms (Including Long Guns, Pistols) => Pistols and Handguns => Topic started by: David in MN on December 29, 2016, 09:20:49 AM

Title: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: David in MN on December 29, 2016, 09:20:49 AM
In a sure sign of the coming apocalypse Kimber has released a revolver.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/revolver

It's a snub nose .357 with a few different variations. But the interesting factor is that it's a 6 shot. It seems Kimber thinks Colt did it right. Maybe a little competition for S&W and Ruger with their 5 shot snubbies? Time will tell.

I like Kimber products. I own one of their 1911s and it's Kimber through and through. Overthought, overdesigned, overpriced, and accurate as hell.

Hickok45's thoughts...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RQAGX967bg
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: archer on December 29, 2016, 09:27:59 AM
nice to see another mfg getting into revolvers
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: d3nni5 on December 29, 2016, 09:45:43 AM
They are beautiful, but one problem ....DAO, don't care for that at all.   I like the option of pulling back a hammer.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: archer on December 29, 2016, 10:10:17 AM
They are beautiful, but one problem ....DAO, don't care for that at all.   I like the option of pulling back a hammer.

very true, i like the hammer on my ruger, but they are going after the deep concealed rugers/s&w with this.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Jack Crabb on December 29, 2016, 10:23:58 AM
Pass. $900 MSRP? 23 oz. empty.

Glock 43 with 6 rds loaded is just under 23 oz.

A Glock 19 empty is 23 oz. It will weigh more loaded because it carries 15 vs. 6 rounds.

.357 magnum shoots the same projectiles as .38 special. The difference between the two lies in velocity, which a 2" barrel gives up a lot. 9mm will shoot 124gr bullets about the same velocity as .357 125gr bullets in the shorter barrels. No difference.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: David in MN on December 29, 2016, 10:29:07 AM
There are those of us who prefer DAO revolvers...

I was a little curious why they didn't offer a DA/SA option. Seems like that market is pretty big. This might just be the first go. It would be interesting if Kimber decided on a strategy of offering more unusual options in the revolver category.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: CPT Morgan on December 29, 2016, 10:41:48 AM
My guess is that it won't last long, just like the .357 bolt gun that Ruger put out recently.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Carl on December 29, 2016, 07:06:16 PM
 I believe that a higher priced revolver like the Kimber has a place with quality and finish that few experienced shooters
will recognize as value as it makes for a spare parts shortage and a gun requiring much more care to keep up the looks.

I do think the "new" plastic frames on Rugers should be best avoided ,though I have seen few of them most all were experiencing
problems with timing and impressed me as not up to my idea of worthy to carry.

To be fair ,I reject Colt's Python due to the delicate trigger mechanism though it is always a good looking gun ,
just not reliable under rough conditions in my opinion.


I like Colt single action and most quality clones
       Colt 1911 and most quality clones
       Smith and Wesson most all of their revolvers
       Glock ,any of them is hard to beat
       Sigs output and quality is hard to beat ,though some part are costly
       Most any RUGER pre-plastic revolver or auto
       The 10-22 that has the plastic trigger group is also suspect ,I buy metal trigger groups froom E GUN PARTS for any in my possession (under $30)
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: David in MN on December 30, 2016, 12:55:07 PM
Pass. $900 MSRP? 23 oz. empty.

Glock 43 with 6 rds loaded is just under 23 oz.

A Glock 19 empty is 23 oz. It will weigh more loaded because it carries 15 vs. 6 rounds.

.357 magnum shoots the same projectiles as .38 special. The difference between the two lies in velocity, which a 2" barrel gives up a lot. 9mm will shoot 124gr bullets about the same velocity as .357 125gr bullets in the shorter barrels. No difference.

The S&W 640 I carry weighs 22.1 ounces empty. It has an MSRP of $729. And I love that gun. If wheelguns don't work for you that's fine. But Kimber is far from outlandish where it is.

I don't like the baby autos in general. The only exception has been the XDS .45 ACP which I love. I just prefer my small guns be revolvers. And there hasn't been a lot of development there since S&W came out with the ultralight wrist breakers. So maybe Kimber has some space to play in?
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: FreeLancer on December 30, 2016, 06:49:16 PM
That's an intriguing piece. 

Impressive to get 6 cylinder holes in a compact revolver like that. If it makes it on to the CA DOJ handgun roster I might be seriously tempted to pick one up.

And, when I grow up, I want to be hickok45!
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: machinisttx on December 31, 2016, 03:13:45 PM
Pass. $900 MSRP? 23 oz. empty.

Glock 43 with 6 rds loaded is just under 23 oz.

A Glock 19 empty is 23 oz. It will weigh more loaded because it carries 15 vs. 6 rounds.

.357 magnum shoots the same projectiles as .38 special. The difference between the two lies in velocity, which a 2" barrel gives up a lot. 9mm will shoot 124gr bullets about the same velocity as .357 125gr bullets in the shorter barrels. No difference.


No. I have chronographed factory remington 125 grain sjhp .357 loads out of my 2.25 inch barreled ruger sp101. I got somewhere around 1220 fps average....which is roughly what a 124 grain +p 9mm load gets out of the average 4 inch autoloader barrel. For what it's worth, winchester ammo would run a little faster than remington I used. I have also gotten 1100 fps with some heavy (but within published data) handloads and 180 grain cast lead bullets(same gun, very unpleasant).

The 9mm Luger is not and never will be equivalent to the .357 magnum. The 9mm can be handloaded to excessively high pressures to get more velocity, but changes will have to be made to the gun or it will rapidly (and literally) beat itself to death. Similar overloads in the .357 would only widen the gap further.

Truth be told, the 38 special can be loaded to exceed 9mm velocities....it was the forerunner of the .357 mag.....but known as the 38-44 Heavy Duty. The breakdown of that name is 38 caliber on the .44 frame(.44 spl).
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Chemsoldier on December 31, 2016, 09:44:21 PM

The 9mm Luger is not and never will be equivalent to the .357 magnum. The 9mm can be handloaded to excessively high pressures to get more velocity, but changes will have to be made to the gun or it will rapidly (and literally) beat itself to death. Similar overloads in the .357 would only widen the gap further.

Truth be told, the 38 special can be loaded to exceed 9mm velocities....it was the forerunner of the .357 mag.....but known as the 38-44 Heavy Duty. The breakdown of that name is 38 caliber on the .44 frame(.44 spl).
Does a .357 inch projectile need to  go that fast? My understanding is that at handgun velocities fps doesn't do much for stopping power in and of itself. Combine that with modern bullet design where they have figured out getting bullet expansion from even some subsonic ammo and standard pressure loads. What is the point of velocities past 9mm+p or at the very least is it worth the extra flash and recoil?
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: 9mmMaster on January 01, 2017, 02:08:08 AM
23 oz is a bit much the smith 340 & 360PD weight is 11 oz 5 shot I wouldn't trade double the weight for one extra round. Also I agree with the people posted above I would like a DA SA option.

If I were designing new revolvers I would make lighter alloy or polymer shorter framed revolvers in .380 and 9mm.

I love .357 but at Chem Soldier pointed out velocity not the end all be all .380 and especially 9mm have come so far why not a small light compact 9mm revolver. 11-15 oz 5-6 shot

All that said its a good looking snubbie
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Jack Crabb on January 02, 2017, 09:04:39 PM
The S&W 640 I carry weighs 22.1 ounces empty. It has an MSRP of $729. And I love that gun. If wheelguns don't work for you that's fine. But Kimber is far from outlandish where it is.

I don't like the baby autos in general. The only exception has been the XDS .45 ACP which I love. I just prefer my small guns be revolvers. And there hasn't been a lot of development there since S&W came out with the ultralight wrist breakers. So maybe Kimber has some space to play in?

The 640 is also a 5 shot vs 6 shot on the Kimber.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Jack Crabb on January 02, 2017, 09:17:43 PM

No. I have chronographed factory remington 125 grain sjhp .357 loads out of my 2.25 inch barreled ruger sp101. I got somewhere around 1220 fps average....which is roughly what a 124 grain +p 9mm load gets out of the average 4 inch autoloader barrel. For what it's worth, winchester ammo would run a little faster than remington I used. I have also gotten 1100 fps with some heavy (but within published data) handloads and 180 grain cast lead bullets(same gun, very unpleasant).

The 9mm Luger is not and never will be equivalent to the .357 magnum. The 9mm can be handloaded to excessively high pressures to get more velocity, but changes will have to be made to the gun or it will rapidly (and literally) beat itself to death. Similar overloads in the .357 would only widen the gap further.

Truth be told, the 38 special can be loaded to exceed 9mm velocities....it was the forerunner of the .357 mag.....but known as the 38-44 Heavy Duty. The breakdown of that name is 38 caliber on the .44 frame(.44 spl).

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html says otherwise. And, the Ruger has .25" greater barrel length.

You can load the ammo how you want, but if the barrel length does not provide for full powder burn/velocity, the unburned powder is just producing muzzle flash. A 4" barrel will always be twice as long as a 2"  barrel.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: CPT Morgan on January 02, 2017, 10:07:47 PM
4" barrel will always be twice as long as a 2"  barrel.

I thought it was "double the length".
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Chemsoldier on January 02, 2017, 10:41:57 PM
...and Colt is reintroducing the Cobra.
http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Revolvers/Cobra

For a decade or so everyone is complaining that no one makes a true small frame 6 shot revolver and now they are back and California will keep them popular.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: David in MN on January 03, 2017, 05:45:17 AM
...and Colt is reintroducing the Cobra.
http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Revolvers/Cobra (http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Revolvers/Cobra)

For a decade or so everyone is complaining that no one makes a true small frame 6 shot revolver and now they are back and California will keep them popular.

That's hilarious. I'm in my mid thirties and anyone of my age will immediately recognize the Colt business model of our generation: "For the love of all things holy, we [Colt] will do anything within our power under the sun to prevent and discourage our consumers from buying a Colt up to and ideally well after the time our competitors are able to produce something newer, better, or with an early market lead."

Had Colt gave a rip about its customers, Springfield and Kimber wouldn't have muscled in on 1911s, Ruger wouldn't be dominant in cowboy action, S&W wouldn't have gone into ARs and hold their market share of revolvers, Taurus might not exist due to market pressure, and this Kimber revolver would die on the drafting board. But Colt would rather scorn us than make money.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Chemsoldier on January 03, 2017, 08:07:15 AM
To be fair, Colt is not monolithic.  Almost all of management has turned over and Colt has been making a concerted effort to get its mojo back in the last couple of years.  Just like with the Mustang, their moves of late seem to be trying to catch multiple parts of the market. 

The Mustang and the Cobra both are designed to get the nostalgia crowd, but also be attractive to the CCW market, which seems smart since the nostalgia sales will wear off at some point.  That makes a lot more sense than starting with the Python or something, which would be very expensive and probably dry up after a few years as people realize they are probably not going to carry and compete with a very expensive, 4-6 inch barreled large framed revolver.

I think the ultimate goal for them should be to build a "retro" brand following.  S&W and Ruger have enough different types and models of firearms that a person can be a "Ruger person" where 3/4 of their collection are Ruger products.  If a person can have a Colt 1911, AR15 and CCW piece that is a fairly diverse assortment of firearms all things considered and may create a space for other niches like the cowboy guns (already being done) and large frame revolvers.  A decent first large double action revolver would be a well made and tough version of the Anaconda.  Handgun hunting is still a place where a big revolver can get ahead.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Carl on January 03, 2017, 08:56:28 AM
I still love and often carry one of my DAN WESSON pistols with a selection of barrel lengths to attach...
lately they sit in the safe,even the 357 Maximum. :'(
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Smurf Hunter on January 03, 2017, 09:18:12 AM
There are those of us who prefer DAO revolvers...

I was a little curious why they didn't offer a DA/SA option. Seems like that market is pretty big. This might just be the first go. It would be interesting if Kimber decided on a strategy of offering more unusual options in the revolver category.

If you want "deep" pocket carry under most any circumstance, having no hammer is a benefit.  Snubbies are not fun range guns, and aside from getting more shots on target faster, making them nicer to shoot is a waste of time in my opinion.  In the past I've been advised you do not want to cock back a revolver's hammer in a self-defense scenario.  There's actually legal precedence associating that with premeditation.  (I know it's lame, but it's law). 

For recreational revolver shooting, I do enjoy SA/DA option.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: David in MN on January 03, 2017, 01:37:36 PM
To be fair, Colt is not monolithic.  Almost all of management has turned over and Colt has been making a concerted effort to get its mojo back in the last couple of years.  Just like with the Mustang, their moves of late seem to be trying to catch multiple parts of the market. 

The Mustang and the Cobra both are designed to get the nostalgia crowd, but also be attractive to the CCW market, which seems smart since the nostalgia sales will wear off at some point.  That makes a lot more sense than starting with the Python or something, which would be very expensive and probably dry up after a few years as people realize they are probably not going to carry and compete with a very expensive, 4-6 inch barreled large framed revolver.

I think the ultimate goal for them should be to build a "retro" brand following.  S&W and Ruger have enough different types and models of firearms that a person can be a "Ruger person" where 3/4 of their collection are Ruger products.  If a person can have a Colt 1911, AR15 and CCW piece that is a fairly diverse assortment of firearms all things considered and may create a space for other niches like the cowboy guns (already being done) and large frame revolvers.  A decent first large double action revolver would be a well made and tough version of the Anaconda.  Handgun hunting is still a place where a big revolver can get ahead.

I don't disagree with most of this. But if (like me) there wasn't a Colt option when you got into wheelguns, you have the muscle memory of pushing a button in and forward (S&W, Ruger). You just don't have the years tugging back on a cute little bell. The cylinder turns the wrong way too (if you need to load a single shot). Nitpicking yes, but important to know if you run a revolver. So in many ways the Colt ship has sailed. You can rebuild the reputation as the pro-gun-control maker but you can't make up lost experience. Even worse it's hard to overcome being the company that has since 1980 failed at every innovation and lost most contracts. They're in deeper than they know.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Smurf Hunter on January 03, 2017, 01:46:24 PM
I don't disagree with most of this. But if (like me) there wasn't a Colt option when you got into wheelguns, you have the muscle memory of pushing a button in and forward (S&W, Ruger). You just don't have the years tugging back on a cute little bell. The cylinder turns the wrong way too (if you need to load a single shot). Nitpicking yes, but important to know if you run a revolver. So in many ways the Colt ship has sailed. You can rebuild the reputation as the pro-gun-control maker but you can't make up lost experience. Even worse it's hard to overcome being the company that has since 1980 failed at every innovation and lost most contracts. They're in deeper than they know.

Ergonomics are real.  If you recall automobiles from the 1970s and before, there were some quirky stuff by today's context:

(http://www.ac2litre.com/ac_files/Pedals3.jpg)

(http://www.classiccarstodayonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/1950s-gear-shift-f-small.jpg)

(http://www.classiccarstodayonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Mercedes-124-column-shifter-small.jpg)
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: machinisttx on January 05, 2017, 09:12:11 PM
Does a .357 inch projectile need to  go that fast? My understanding is that at handgun velocities fps doesn't do much for stopping power in and of itself. Combine that with modern bullet design where they have figured out getting bullet expansion from even some subsonic ammo and standard pressure loads. What is the point of velocities past 9mm+p or at the very least is it worth the extra flash and recoil?
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: machinisttx on January 05, 2017, 09:56:28 PM
Hit the wrong button.... 

My snubby is all steel for a reason, it's heavy and that reduces recoil. The rubber grip helps too. Muzzle flash depends on more than powder amount or barrel length. The manufacturer can add stuff to the powder to reduce flash, and some powders seem less prone to it anyway.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: machinisttx on January 05, 2017, 10:08:22 PM
That's hilarious. I'm in my mid thirties and anyone of my age will immediately recognize the Colt business model of our generation: "For the love of all things holy, we [Colt] will do anything within our power under the sun to prevent and discourage our consumers from buying a Colt up to and ideally well after the time our competitors are able to produce something newer, better, or with an early market lead."

Had Colt gave a rip about its customers, Springfield and Kimber wouldn't have muscled in on 1911s, Ruger wouldn't be dominant in cowboy action, S&W wouldn't have gone into ARs and hold their market share of revolvers, Taurus might not exist due to market pressure, and this Kimber revolver would die on the drafting board. But Colt would rather scorn us than make money.

Colt revolvers were more expensive to produce and cost more at the gun counter as a result. Other than the Python (which incidentally was only made a .357 as an afterthought...it was designed as a .38 target revolver) and it's choke bored barrel, none of them delivered anything better than the equivalent S&W. Cult's politics and general business practices aside, there wasn't much chance of them remaining competitive in the revolver market.


Carl, I had a DW44 for a while, with 4" and 6" ported barrels. It was bigger and heavier than my S&W 29, and felt a lot less refined. I did not care for it and traded it off for a CZ75B.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: FreeLancer on September 28, 2017, 04:30:38 PM
nutnfancy likes it:  https://youtu.be/zbViQPcFtJs (https://youtu.be/zbViQPcFtJs)
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: archer on September 28, 2017, 10:14:27 PM
well, if nutnfancy likes it then i gotta get it..... ;)
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Chemsoldier on September 29, 2017, 07:37:41 AM
Hit the wrong button.... 

My snubby is all steel for a reason, it's heavy and that reduces recoil. The rubber grip helps too. Muzzle flash depends on more than powder amount or barrel length. The manufacturer can add stuff to the powder to reduce flash, and some powders seem less prone to it anyway.

I agree a steel gun and proper grips does mitigate recoil, however, what is the increase in efficacy for high velocity .357 diameter bullets?  If the increase in performance is marginal, is it worth a +X% increase in recoil, flash, etc. even if the steel makes it "not that bad?"
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Carl on September 29, 2017, 07:55:21 AM
I agree a steel gun and proper grips does mitigate recoil, however, what is the increase in efficacy for high velocity .357 diameter bullets?  If the increase in performance is marginal, is it worth a +X% increase in recoil, flash, etc. even if the steel makes it "not that bad?"

In a short barreled 'pocket pistol' often the slight extra power gain of 357 is not worth the bark as hydrostatic shock is hard to obtain below 1200 feet per second and many think they need the energy and penetration of heavy bullets.It is the hydrostatic shock that does the work for the 'take down' energy so many seek and many lighter 88 to 130 grain bullets do the job with lower risk of overpenetration.

 
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: armymars on September 29, 2017, 08:53:31 AM
  OT just a little.
  What I would like is the S&W Model 13 like the FBI use to carry. I bought my wife a Model 36-1 with 3' barrel back in 1974??? after 3 shots she would put the gun down and not want to shoot it with hollow base wad cutters. I found a set of Mustang over size grips for it and manage to get Magna Port to port the 38 sp for me. ( He kept telling me it wouldn't be worth my time or money. We went back to the range and the wife was happy with it. At one point there was a loud bang. I had dropped a double charge of Bullseye. When I ask her if she was OK, she said she was fine. The last shot was just a little louder then the others.
  The model 13 is a .357 version of the 36 and has a 3' bull barrel. Now if I could just fined the right grips.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: FreeLancer on September 30, 2017, 01:28:05 AM
well, if nutnfancy likes it then i gotta get it..... ;)

I've justified buying a crap-ton of stuff because of that guy over the years, but I just can't do it this time around.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Chemsoldier on September 30, 2017, 06:22:16 AM
I've justified buying a crap-ton of stuff because of that guy over the years, but I just can't do it this time around.

You were just placating him. "OK I'll buy it! Just stop talking!"
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Carl on September 30, 2017, 06:47:13 AM
You were just placating him. "OK I'll buy it! Just stop talking!"

High pressure salesman....
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: FreeLancer on September 30, 2017, 01:28:15 PM
You were just placating him. "OK I'll buy it! Just stop talking!"

Yea, verily.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: David in MN on September 30, 2017, 01:47:13 PM
I agree a steel gun and proper grips does mitigate recoil, however, what is the increase in efficacy for high velocity .357 diameter bullets?  If the increase in performance is marginal, is it worth a +X% increase in recoil, flash, etc. even if the steel makes it "not that bad?"

Depends on the objective. If you're trying to shoot an aggressor probably not. If your goal is to blind and deafen everyone in the room...
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Chemsoldier on September 30, 2017, 01:51:19 PM
Depends on the objective. If you're trying to shoot an aggressor probably not. If your goal is to blind and deafen everyone in the room...

 :spit:

When they figured out how to make 147 grain 9mm JHPs open up at subsonic velocities, the cat was out of the bag.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: machinisttx on September 30, 2017, 07:17:06 PM
I don't know of a single 9mm bullet that generates the same sort of secondary wound channels as a 125 grain semi jacketed hollowpoint from a .357 mag, which is the load that got the .357 it's reputation.

Which 147 grain 9mm bullet are you referring to? It's been a while since I looked, but as far as I know, there weren't any that expanded reliably from standard service size guns. They would be even less reliable from a compact or subcompact pistol.

I'm still kicking myself for not buying the only 3" M13 I ever saw. It's ok I guess, I have a 2.5" M66.  ;D
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Chemsoldier on October 01, 2017, 06:17:46 AM
I don't know of a single 9mm bullet that generates the same sort of secondary wound channels as a 125 grain semi jacketed hollowpoint from a .357 mag, which is the load that got the .357 it's reputation.

Which 147 grain 9mm bullet are you referring to? It's been a while since I looked, but as far as I know, there weren't any that expanded reliably from standard service size guns. They would be even less reliable from a compact or subcompact pistol.

I'm still kicking myself for not buying the only 3" M13 I ever saw. It's ok I guess, I have a 2.5" M66.  ;D
Gen 1 Gold Dots.

I personally would not do 147s, i agree that there is still more margin for error in expansion than i would like but the point is that irs a whole different ball game from the old days of effectively shooting a solid.  I am not seeing a lot of margin between 125 .357 and say 127 grain 9mm+p+ or Speer 124 grain +p.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: David in MN on October 01, 2017, 07:03:16 AM
As is often said about modern ammunition, the only people who will know the difference are you and the coroner.
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: armymars on October 01, 2017, 12:57:22 PM
  I think the 147 gr 9mm was a Hydro Shock. 
Title: Re: Kimber makes a revolver?
Post by: Carl on October 01, 2017, 04:00:33 PM
  Silvertips were close and also CCI Lawman...and very briefly the hollow copper TAURUS  HEX ammo.