ATF seizes airsoft rifles, says they can be converted to machine guns

[Asclepius]

I've been reading about this all over the place, but I hadn't seen it here yet. The ATF seized a shipment of airsoft rifles headed to Cornelius, OR, stating that they can be readily converted into machine guns. So far the ATF has refused to provide proof of how they supposedly can be turned into machine guns

http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m3d12-Why-do-ATF-employees-question-fitness-of-agent-in-toy-gun-seizure

AONW & the Tacoma "Machine Gun" ATF Confiscation

[teton traveler]

I've Got It!!!. If any problem can be solved with duct tape, you could buy a roll of duct tape and wrap it enough times around the barrel and magically it could hold the pressures of a military cartridge, and if you got a piece of double sided duct tape, you could put it on the face of the bolt and that could act as your extractor. The secret is out now. I guess the ATF now has to waste tax payers dollars and require duct tape to be sold through FFL dealers as a machine gun conversion tool.

[ZUPIII]

Un friggin believable. The big bad, all seeing, all knowing government. What a joke.

[bartsdad]

I've Got It!!!. If any problem can be solved with duct tape, you could buy a roll of duct tape and wrap it enough times around the barrel and magically it could hold the pressures of a military cartridge, and if you got a piece of double sided duct tape, you could put it on the face of the bolt and that could act as your extractor. The secret is out now. I guess the ATF now has to waste tax payers dollars and require duct tape to be sold through FFL dealers as a machine gun conversion tool.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-duct-tape-cannon.html

[teton traveler]

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-duct-tape-cannon.html

Well, that settles it. The BATFE now needs to change its name to BATFEDT.

[Orionblade]

I've seen airsoft M-16's with aluminum recievers. I would imagine that someone could toss an upper reciever on it with some modifications, but you'd have to BUY AN UPPER RECIEVER.

And that's assuming the threads and all would match up, and that you wouldn't have to do a bunch of machining to get the internals to fit... etc. etc. etc. etc.

What a load of crap.

He probbably pissed in someone's wheaties a while back, or has a whiny neighbor.

*dies in a fire*

[union hill]

There was a very similar story about airsoft guns being seized in Tacoma, WA. They looked pretty nice, being a gas blowback instead of electric design, and the manufacturer had neglected to ship them with orange barrel tips, but the idea that they could be converted to "machine guns" with new internal parts was pretty ridiculous.

[Goober Pyle]

Agent Crenshaw was involved in the Tacoma seizure, he's the guy in the video. Same story.

There has already been a thread about this on TSPF.

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=14684.msg163616#msg163616

[everman7]

sadly I think the ATF is correct in their idea that these particular 'toys' CAN be converted to a machine gun.

I would prefer to hear from any forum moderators whether it's appropriate to post the how and why this can be done before posting.

Seeing as this is my first post here, I don't want to get into any trouble!

everman7

p.s. Hello everyone!

[Serellan]

sadly I think the ATF is correct in their idea that these particular 'toys' CAN be converted to a machine gun.

I would prefer to hear from any forum moderators whether it's appropriate to post the how and why this can be done before posting.

Seeing as this is my first post here, I don't want to get into any trouble!

everman7

p.s. Hello everyone!

Specific instructions would not be allowed.  Generally stating evidence that the ATF are not bumbling idiots they appear to be is fine.

I have quite a bit of experience with various airsoft guns, and do NOT believe any can be converted to be real guns.

[The Professor]

OK, I have a friend of mine who just brought one of these Airsoft rifles over. He's an UBER airsoft geek.  After making much fun of him dressing in camo clothing and running around the woods PLAYING army at 28 years old, we pulled apart two of my REAL AR's to see how it could be done.

I will unequivocally state that I'm 90% sure that this particular airsoft rifle can be mated to a real upper.

There would be EXTENSIVE internal and external machining and welding required.  Internals would completely have to be changed around.  

How much?  Well, let me put it this way.  Were I to do it myself, I'd rather start with a single block of 7076 aluminum and machine it down to the appropriate lower specs (something which is totally legal, by the way, as long as it's for personal use).

Since the mods are restricting the how's of the method, just consider that every pin, every hole, every dimension on one of these rifles is exactly wrong.  The buffer tube and interface are wrong for a real rifle, so you'd have to rework that. Magazines won't fit properly, so you'd have to re-adjust that.  Take-down pins are the wrong size and placement, etc. ad nauseum.

Not only would it require advanced welding and machinist's skills, but it's absolutely ridiculous for someone to even try it.  The base cost of this toy rifle is ridiculous.  I don't care HOW much it looks like the real thing.

And in the end. . .I wouldn't shoot it.  While the lower doesn't have to be as strong as the upper, the aluminum is NOT military or SAAMI spec and I'd be afraid that the first time that weapon went off (if it ever did), the buffer tube would launch itself into my shoulder.  

Ridiculous and waste of time.

The Professor

By the way. . .this particular agent was removed from a director's position for incompetence and other reasons. I think we can see why.

[Mental Avenger]

The whole stance of the ATF regarding semi-auto and automatic weapons is absurd.  If they want to, they can use the “can be converted to full automatic” clause to confiscate virtually any magazine fed firearm. 

About 100 years ago, Browning converted a lever action rifle to semi-automatic by using a disc with a hole in it to catch the muzzle blast and cycle the action.  The step from there to full auto is minor. 

During WWII, bolt action rifles were converted to semi-auto using a more complicated mechanism.  Again, the transition to full auto is minor.

During the “Assault Weapons Ban”, Barbara Boxer and Diane Feinstein outlawed a BB gun as an assault weapon.

[everman7]

My concern was with the new gas blowback rifles are VERY similar to the real steal versions.
I have not gotten my hands on one, but I have a photo in an airsoft magazine that shows what looks to be
a functioning trigger and hammer set in the lower. I'm not talking about the battery powered electric internals.
The gas blowback rifles actually use a hammer. GBB rifles are already full auto.
I'm sure the lower is constructed of rediculously cheap pot metal and would probably just crack in half, if not worse.
Just wanted to share my view.

Moderator can delete this if deemed neccessary!
This info in the wrong hands can be scary.

everman7

[Serellan]

My concern was with the new gas blowback rifles are VERY similar to the real steal versions.
I have not gotten my hands on one, but I have a photo in an airsoft magazine that shows what looks to be
a functioning trigger and hammer set in the lower. I'm not talking about the battery powered electric internals.
The gas blowback rifles actually use a hammer. GBB rifles are already full auto.
I'm sure the lower is constructed of rediculously cheap pot metal and would probably just crack in half, if not worse.
Just wanted to share my view.

Moderator can delete this if deemed neccessary!
This info in the wrong hands can be scary.

everman7

But the point is as soon as you put a round in there and lit it off somehow, the whole thing would explode.

[everman7]

http://img.redwolfairsoft.com/upload/newsletter/1/INOM4-28082008-2.jpg

This is a good graphic example of what my point is.
That's a full auto sear set for a Gas Blowback M4.
Easily mated to a real steel upper if the dimensions are the same.

I love my guns and I love my airsoft stuff, but things like this jeapordize all of us owning them.

everman7

[chrisdfw]

This is stupid beyond belief. anyone can convert an AR-15 to full auto easier than using airsoft, we don't
because it is illegal, not because we can't get or make the parts.

There is nothing magic about machine gun parts, it is really easy to make an open bolt full auto firearm, you
only need a trigger to let the bolt go forward or stop it. You don't even need a hammer, only a fixed firing pin.

I don't know the source but I agree with this:
BATFE should be a convience store not a government agency.

[Orionblade]

http://img.redwolfairsoft.com/upload/newsletter/1/INOM4-28082008-2.jpg

*drools*

[Nadir_E]

Unfortunately I can't cite a source, so this only qualifies as rumor, but perhaps The Professor's notes above back it up.  I was under the impression that when the Japanese began the airsoft industry (recalling that private ownership of real firearms is basically outlawed) they intentionally made the devices slightly out-of-spec as compared to real firearms.  I know that some aftermarket items intended for real guns fit on their airsoft counterparts (scopes, lights, furniture, etc.), but I don't believe this is the case with regard to receivers, barrels, etc. 

In any case, the original story is clearly an example of an ATF agent choosing to go for the low-hanging fruit rather than doing the job We The People actually hired him to do.  All to often it seems that they pick on 'regular' citizens because it's far too hard and far too scary to go after the criminals who truly threaten society.

[Gun Shy Tourist]

I addressed this topic and more in a commentary found here:

http://aroundotown.blogspot.com/2010/04/they-really-do-not-care-about-replica.html

[Orionblade]

low-hanging fruit

 

[chromesoldier]

WOW.    I am going to go hide my kids NERF ball gun. I think if I tried it can launch 40mm Grenades.  Damn ATF already at my door!!!!!!

[Urban Knight]

Guys, we're looking at it the wrong way. Let me narrate what some fools do here in the Philippines, makes me want to use real firearms on some of these weirdos. Have been playing airsoft for 8 years, started out with plastic guns that you have to cock with every shot using .12 grain plastic pellets, something you can buy for the equivalent of a few US cents.  Then bought 2nd hand Maruhi guns with 280 fps (feet per second),  Very expensive at $200 equivalent, mind you these were 2nd hand.  We can now buy in the Philippines Chinese made airsoft guns going 475 fps out of the box, with tournament rules stating you can't go over 450.  So you have to break these guns in if you want them to go down to 450.  But some guys upgrade to as much as 750 to 900 fps.  Expensive and breaks down the gun. 

Some groups sponsor "OPEN" FPS tournaments and I tell my group to shy away from that as they don't plan to have fun anymore, but to hurt people.  It turns out I was correct in my advice. There's this group that plays with us, good guys that tried entering an "OPEN" FPS competition.  One player was rushed to the Emergency Room as what hit him was not a plastic pellet or BB but a steel BB.  It inbeded about .3 of an inch inside his skin.  Some other guys had their masks and helmets shattered by BBs, too strong to be plastic, and for these steel BBs to go through the skin I can't imagine how strong those Airsoft springs are, and how powerful their batteries are.  Parts are not regulated here, so anyone with the money can upgarade to as much as 800-1000 fps but that will for sure ruin the toy. 

So think of steel BBs or Pellets going out at 750 fps,  hitting your wrist, neck, or anywhere in your body where you could bleed to death, or really maim you.  Don't think firearms with gunpowder and shell casings and bullets, think of super springs at 220 power enabling a stell pellet to go 700 feet per second.  Might not kill you but it sure will cause damage.

As for those guys using steel pellets, we never did find out who that was but we know his team so we don't invite them to our site.  And no one joins open fps tournaments anymore.   

[Loki]

The ATF seized a shipment of airsoft rifles headed to Cornelius, OR, stating that they can be readily converted into machine guns.

This is standard policy in Australia, along with the argument they can be used to rob stores, so there's a blanket ban in most states. Airsoft weapons are treated as in the same category as their real-steel counterparts.

[RPZ]

Full auto BB guns are available - so what is it with airsofts? For anyone to say that a device can be "readily converted to a machinegun" it has to be a firearm to begin with.

Evidently, and as many already know, what the batmen want to call a firearm, a machinegun, a "sporting" gun etc can be anything they want it to be. These things happen when you give tax collectors regulatory powers.

[The Professor]

Full auto BB guns are available - so what is it with airsofts? For anyone to say that a device can be "readily converted to a machinegun" it has to be a firearm to begin with.

Evidently, and as many already know, what the batmen want to call a firearm, a machinegun, a "sporting" gun etc can be anything they want it to be. These things happen when you give tax collectors regulatory powers.

Well, when the airsoft lowers are made to match the real-firearm uppers. . .and have holes in the exact same places as the select-fire trigger groups. . AND have the appropriate internal dimensions to accept all the full-auto parts. . . so that all you have to do is get a full-auto fire group and slap on an upper and buffer tube. . .I do have to admit that I can see where they'd become a bit nervous  about it.

And yes, they do accept AR mags.

The Professor

[RPZ]

Well considering what work would be involved to do this accrding to one poster here, a piece of aluminum bar staock would qualify as well. Anyone with the will andan average brain and some tools can just about convert any semi auto firearm. It's simple mechanics.