Author Topic: Episode 517-Free State Project  (Read 14507 times)

Offline Stormchaser

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Episode 517-Free State Project
« on: September 26, 2010, 04:04:19 PM »
First let me state that I am not a member of the Free State Project, which is essentially the effort to get liberty-loving Americans to re-locate to New Hampshire. I am, however, somewhat associated with the 'other' free state project, which is centered in Wyoming. My understanding is that both groups were once together, and some sort of decision process was implemented to choose a state to focus on for the whole movement, and both New Hampshire and Wyoming were among the top choices with NH eventually winning out. At that point or sometime afterwards, the Wyoming supporters decided to create their own movement.

The Wyoming free staters make a lot of valid points, such as less standing population so re-locaters would have more of a voting impact, being out West where big government has not grown quite as fast, better gun laws and other Constitutional freedoms, etc. I have noticed, though, that the NH free staters that I have read posts from are very committed and passionate, but they have much more to overcome, population-wise, in NH then the Wyoming folks do.

I would like to offer a STRONG recommendation that Jack and anyone else interested read a book called, 'Molon Labe', by Boston T. Party, which is a fictionalized account of libertarians re-locating to Wyoming, turning the state's political orientation to libertarian, and eventually coming head-to-head with the USG. It is an interesting yarn but I soon noticed after reading some 30 or 40 pages that, hey, this guy is attempting to talk me into moving to Wyoming! It worked, and I just spent the month of June, 2010 in Wyoming talking to the Wyoming Free Staters and touring the state for relocation purposes (I am from Ohio). The Wyoming group have 'targeted' (more of a suggestion than the vigorous efforts in the book) 3 counties for liberty-loving Americans to re-locate in. And I am not the only one. There are a continuous stream of Americans who have gotten exposed to the free state idea from Molon Labe or other sources and are making The Big Move.

'Molon Labe' is 2/3'rds fiction, with a final 1/3 facts about the State of Wyoming. The title of the book comes from King Leondias, king of the Spartans, giving this expression to Xerxes when Xerxes demanded surrender of their weapons. Leondias replied, "Molon Labe!" (come and take them).

http://www.amazon.com/Molon-Labe-Boston-T-Party/dp/1888766077/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1285537698&sr=1-1



Web Article on Wyoming Free State -

http://trib.com/news/top_story/article_7baee748-ad1c-5f4f-b091-e795f4bcbc2e.html



Wyoming Free State URL -

http://www.freestatewyoming.org/

Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2010, 12:16:11 PM »
I think another advantage Wyoming has is cost of property.  If you want 20 acres in either they are both quite expensive but a typical 3/2 home on say .5-3 acres is WAY less costly in Wyoming and property taxes seem lower as well.

My gut and I could be wrong is that NH won because a lot of folks were closer to it to begin with.  NH is geographically small and a lot of people in Southern NH are able to work near Boston as well taking that "big city income" back to their home state.  Wyoming on the other hand requires you to have a lot more independent wealth to pull it off.

If I was allowed to move as far as either one, I personally would choose Wyoming.  But with my wife we are going to be forced to perhaps start Free State Arkansas, which ain't a bad idea as I see it.  The population is double NH at 2.8 million BUT one can exert a LOT of control over a state by controlling the state house and senate.  About half the population lives in just 9 cities in Arkansas and a full 20% in Little Rock proper.  Now if such a movement wanted to take over a 51% majority with liberty minded reps one could find first the 25% of counties that are already damn close, ignore the population centers and move into the counties closest to the tipping point first.  State elections in non presidential years have poor turn outs, it would seem that in many districts just 1-2K people could completely change the balance of power.

The key would be take libertarian candidates into areas where the democrats tend to win by 5-15 points, call them republicans and support the hell out of them.

My biggest concern with why something like this can't work in Arkansas, Mississippi, etc the whole mid south is more about people on the dole.  People on the tit of government don't like liberty!  Gee I wonder why ???  Arkansas and much of the mid south has very high percentages of people on welfare, medicaid, food stamps, section 8 housing, etc.  This is an almost to large of an obstacle to overcome and my view on why states like Wyoming and Montana make a lot more sense. 

What would really help Wyoming would be to bring in say 6-12 new large companies that support liberty.  Firearm manufactures, hunting manufactures, etc spring to mind.  The key would be this needs to be either manufacturing or like customer service stuff (phone support not out of Delhi).  You don't have a huge economy in Wyoming to service locally so any big jump in the economy needs to be an export based or remote service type of thing. 

Think though, Wyoming has a population of 544K, that includes kids to young to vote, people that just don't vote, etc.  Say 200K people vote in Wyoming (I have no idea how accurate that is).  Now if you create 50K new jobs with 12 new companies and bring in 25K new "fee state types" to fill some of them that would be over 10% of voters right there, also include spouses and all the new jobs such jobs would create.  Wyoming could easily grow to 1-1.5 million people with no crowding at all, has a ton of natural resources and is already really damn close to being libertarian minded as it is.

Now if I could just sell my wife on being 18 hours from her family, ain't gonna happen though.  So who want to help me at least take over Hot Spring County?

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2010, 12:27:56 PM »
Quote
... So who want to help me at least take over Hot Spring County?
Sorry Jack,
Had I known you ten years ago when I bought land in Sharp County, maybe we could have coordinated something like that.
 ;D
Who knows, maybe someday I'll sell my Sharp County land and then we'll see.

Offline Stormchaser

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2010, 01:49:27 PM »
Well, I no longer have a spouse in the way of (what I would call) progress, so I am free to choose what I will, and when you combine that with a lack of worldly goods (another 'gift' from the deserting spouse) and my determination to NOT go through that again, hence remaining out of debt and being fairly free to change locations, I may actually owe her a debt of (something). Not that I wouldn't mind finding a spouse again, but my thoughts are to focus on what's happening with the economy and make the moves I deem advisable now, before someone else is in the picture with other concerns.

I've not had the impression that Wyoming land prices are all that great yet, and my initial focus in moving there will most likely include living the RV life for awhile.

On that vein though somewhat off-topic, but I just found out from another survival site about something called 'range camps/sheepwagons', basic RV's that can be off-road and likely hold up better than standard RV's. They look to be more simplistic and even rustic, hopefully cheaper too (I'm checking that out).

Offline cliffyp

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2010, 02:01:51 PM »
@ Jack,

I'm not sure if I missed the caller's point or you did, but I think he was asking about resisting being annexed, not by forming your own government before they could get you, but by simply saying that no one here wants to be part of your city and pay your taxes.  If everyone in a rural area was apposed to being annexed, does another incorporated body have the right to claim ownership and therefore charge tax.  It sounds like a mafia protection racket.  Annexing an area where residents are wanting the services of a city makes sense, but could a group of like minded people all say "no thank you, we don't want any.  Stay Away!"

Offline liftsboxes

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2010, 04:13:05 PM »
I'm a participant in the Free State Project in New Hampshire.  I moved here in March of 2009 with my wife and two daughters. 

Land costs often look high in New Hampshire because a lot of the property on the market is in the southern part of the state, which is much more developed and heavily populated than the northern areas.  Property taxes also vary wildly. 

Other than some of the things Jack alluded to above, one of the big advantages to NH is the support of other Free Staters.  Participants in the project help each other scout locations, find jobs, set up businesses, and trade skills / services.  There is so much to say about the project that, rather than write a book about what you might want to hear, I'd be happy to answer any questions that forums members might have.

Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2010, 04:30:39 PM »
Other than some of the things Jack alluded to above, one of the big advantages to NH is the support of other Free Staters.  Participants in the project help each other scout locations, find jobs, set up businesses, and trade skills / services.  There is so much to say about the project that, rather than write a book about what you might want to hear, I'd be happy to answer any questions that forums members might have.

And that is a big deal right there.  Having people who want you and are willing to help you.  A very big deal!

Offline liftsboxes

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2010, 05:36:26 AM »
And that is a big deal right there.  Having people who want you and are willing to help you.  A very big deal!

It really comes into play because there are such a variety of people moving here for the Free State Project.  Some are people with lots of experience and plenty of survival skills.  Some are young and are very politically and socially aware of the ways intrusive government limits our freedoms, but they don't necessarily have a lot of applicable survival skills ... just an awareness of the traps debt, lack of food storage, and a lack of defensive/firearms training can present.  You've also got some people who are much more off the grid, like the folks up at www.bardoproject.com or www.agoristacres.com .

There are some very politically active Free Staters, both in and out of the system.  Some practice civil disobedience and others are getting into the state legislature.  During the recent primary, there were by my count 34 FSP participants running for state rep.  Eighteen made it through the primary and fourteen are likely to be elected / re-elected.  NH has a very accessible legislature and there are no professional State Reps.  They make about $200 per year for that position, so they all have other actual jobs or sources of income.

We're also working to build community and get involved with native New Englanders.  I can count several businesses and organizations that have been started by FSPers.  Two that I'm involved with directly are the www.informalu.org and The Church of the Sword.  Some, like Murphy's Taproom, are more conventional in nature.  Others, like Shire Silver, are less so.

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2010, 08:07:34 AM »
I have lived by Wyoming all of my life, and honestly, as great as WY is politically and historically for freedom, I cannot bring myself to move to that barren wasteland.  I can't.  Now, there are parts that are green and watered and beautiful.  and the cost of land is astronomical there because of Jackson Hole and Yellowstone.

I would love love love to move to New Hampshire.  It is a most beautiful place, for sure.  My problem is that it is not the greatest place for homeschooling.  In fact, it is one of the worst according to HSLDA because the state legislature is continually trying to regulate it more and more.  And homeschooling laws are high on our priority list for a final location for our family and our homestead.

Offline liftsboxes

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2010, 08:47:26 AM »
I have lived by Wyoming all of my life, and honestly, as great as WY is politically and historically for freedom, I cannot bring myself to move to that barren wasteland.  I can't.  Now, there are parts that are green and watered and beautiful.  and the cost of land is astronomical there because of Jackson Hole and Yellowstone.

I would love love love to move to New Hampshire.  It is a most beautiful place, for sure.  My problem is that it is not the greatest place for homeschooling.  In fact, it is one of the worst according to HSLDA because the state legislature is continually trying to regulate it more and more.  And homeschooling laws are high on our priority list for a final location for our family and our homestead.

Good point on the homeschooling laws, but as with many things ... there are a lot of ways around them.  The Informal University is cooperating with the Scholar's Academy to offer some alternatives to homeschoolers here in NH.  The Scholar's Academy is a private school for gifted children aged 5-12 and will act as the NH required 'cooperating' partner for interested homeschoolers.  The Informal University is about a week away from offering courses designed for the older homeschoolers that they can take with their parents (or alone).  These courses will be on topics many parents feel a little under-equipped to handle alone: physics, calculus, computer programming, and foreign languages.

Several of the FSP state reps are also going to be working on those laws during the next session as well.

One thing to remember, the FSP is all about taking something that is already pretty good and making it more liberty oriented.  It isn't about moving somewhere and practicing the fine art of couch potatoing.   

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2010, 09:00:08 AM »
One thing to remember, the FSP is all about taking something that is already pretty good and making it more liberty oriented.  It isn't about moving somewhere and practicing the fine art of couch potatoing.   

I know, but it is a long way to go from Red on the HSLDA map, meaning "hostile to homeschoolers" to green.  You have to change a whole lot of minds.  We are considering West Virginia, which is not exactly homeschool friendly, but it has other good things going.  We are not moving yet, and we are already pretty politically active here, but NH is not on our top 5.


re: native NH-ites..... what do they think about the influx of people coming in and "changing" their state?  I hate it when CA-ians move here and start making us more like the "wonderful place they couldn't wait to leave."

Offline liftsboxes

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2010, 09:32:14 AM »
Most of us don't show up and say "Hey!  We're here to change things!"  We move here because NH is already a very free state.  Most native residents that I talk to aren't and haven't ever been fans of intrusive government.  There are an awful lot of fed up people out there who appreciate people who move in from out of state because they like what NH stands for to begin with.  I have several close friend who identify as pre-Staters, they moved here long before anyone ever thought of a 'Free State' project for the same reasons the FSP chose NH.  Change in terms of rolling back government is fairly popular.


Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2010, 09:58:57 AM »
I have lived by Wyoming all of my life, and honestly, as great as WY is politically and historically for freedom, I cannot bring myself to move to that barren wasteland.  I can't.  Now, there are parts that are green and watered and beautiful.  and the cost of land is astronomical there because of Jackson Hole and Yellowstone.

I would love love love to move to New Hampshire.  It is a most beautiful place, for sure.  My problem is that it is not the greatest place for homeschooling.  In fact, it is one of the worst according to HSLDA because the state legislature is continually trying to regulate it more and more.  And homeschooling laws are high on our priority list for a final location for our family and our homestead.

Join us in Hot Springs!  I think Arkansas is pretty solid.  I know a bad bill for Home Schoolers just came up and got slammed down pretty hard. 

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2010, 10:22:53 AM »
Join us in Hot Springs!  I think Arkansas is pretty solid.  I know a bad bill for Home Schoolers just came up and got slammed down pretty hard.  

ah, I am flattered..... but Arkansas is just too darn hot for me and mine.  we like snow piled higher than our hips and cold blustery days wearing sweaters and drinking hot chocolate and soup and warm bread straight from the oven.  West Virginia is pushing it for us on the "too far south" meter....

yes, we are self-limiting in this regard, but we can choose our place since DH works from home and he can work anywhere (his bro works "with" him in New Zealand) we can get high speed internet. And if we can choose, we are going to choose cold  :D

Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2010, 10:28:58 AM »
ah, I am flattered..... but Arkansas is just too darn hot for me and mine.  we like snow piled higher than our hips and cold blustery days wearing sweaters and drinking hot chocolate and soup and warm bread straight from the oven.  West Virginia is pushing it for us on the "too far south" meter....

yes, we are self-limiting in this regard, but we can choose our place since DH works from home and he can work anywhere (his bro works "with" him in New Zealand) we can get high speed internet. And if we can choose, we are going to choose cold  :D

I know what you mean!  I tried pushing us up to TN, KY or WV but to far to talk the wife into it.  She always says she loves snow, my response is only latitude is separating you from it.   ;D

Offline Stormchaser

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2010, 12:46:52 PM »
I have lived by Wyoming all of my life, and honestly, as great as WY is politically and historically for freedom, I cannot bring myself to move to that barren wasteland.  I can't.  Now, there are parts that are green and watered and beautiful.  and the cost of land is astronomical there because of Jackson Hole and Yellowstone.




Though land prices are still high statewide, they certainly are not all as bad as the liberal enclaves like Jackson Hole. And if one interacts and networks with the Free State Wyoming group, deals come up and are passed to those whom are looking.

I can see the point about barren wasteland in a way. But living in Ohio gives me a different perspective. In my month of traveling around Wyoming I was refreshed by the wide-open spaces, and yes, even the sagebrush. I camped in the gorgeous Big Horn mountains, surrounded by the unbelievable beauty of mountain tops around me, a rushing river going through my (free) camping spot, with nary a person around other than myself.

Wyoming gets cold in the Winter, down to 35 below I hear. Can't say that fact floats my boat, but I have come to hate the creeping (now tsunami) socialism in the Eastern states, and though extensive research I know that being out West might be a very good place to be in the coming years of testing our country will experience. So I'll take the barren areas of Wyoming, along with the forests in the northeastern section of the state, the beauty of the mountains, the freedom attitudes, and even the winter should I choose not to be a snowbird, over the dubious value of being part of the sheeple of the East. I wish the free staters in New Hampshire well. I'm impressed with their efforts, though I am pessimistic of the outcome.

Oh, and good luck to Jack with the 'Free State Arkansas' project.  ;D

Offline Amator

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2010, 02:12:17 PM »
I wish there was a Free State Pennsylvania or Free State West Virginia.  I know the first would never ever fly 'cause you could never balance out the Philly/Pittsburgh vote, but I wonder about WV. 

I think I'd like NH, but it's too far away from home for my wife. 

Offline liftsboxes

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2010, 02:43:01 PM »
I would say that whether or not you think you'd ever make the NH move ... Porc Fest is a great time and a good excuse to visit NH.

http://www.freestateproject.org/festival/








... and then there is JD, who really likes open carry


Offline ModernSurvival

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2010, 02:45:27 PM »
The open carry guy looks like he could be Bryan Black from ITS Tactical's brother or at least a cousin.

Seriously NH is an awesome state, I spent a lot of time in both the Green Mountains of VT and the White Mountains of NH.  Both are beautiful places.

Offline ag2

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2010, 11:16:02 PM »
Quote
I hate it when CA-ians move here and start making us more like the "wonderful place they couldn't wait to leave."

MorningSunshine:  Sounds like you live here in CO.  After my 5 year stint overseas, I experienced a bit of culture shock and extreme disappointment upon my return.  Colorado Springs had recklessly exploded (in size) from 1992 - 1997.  I also had the impression (my own opinion) that it was politically driven and that was years before I had read Molon Labe.

Have you considered Alaska?

Offline Don in Cleveland

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2010, 06:57:18 AM »
This thread makes we want to move to both states!  ACH!!

(ultimately, I just have to get out of northeast Ohio eventually)

Offline liftsboxes

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2010, 07:57:41 AM »
Well, at least you're close to Cedar Point, Don.

Offline liftsboxes

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2010, 03:35:42 PM »

Offline Stormchaser

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2010, 11:34:00 PM »
'liftsboxes', that festival looks like a great time! Have you been to it, and if you have, can you give us a first-hand report?

The timing, if it is in June every year, might not work for me as the Wyoming stuff takes place then also, and as previously stated, I am headed West. But if I'm in Ohio next June (or whenever Porcfest 11 is), I could see going.

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2010, 03:32:18 AM »
I was at PorcFest '10 and it is a tremendous time.  Frankly, there is so much to do and see that it's hard to take it all in as one individual.  You can also meet a several tons to very cool people.   Let me see if I can find an online version of the program and then you can ask me questions about more specific details of the Festival.

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Offline wyomiles

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2011, 08:28:13 PM »
I am a Free State Wyoming Member.  you can check us out at

http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php

We have get togethers each June. We try to network and help each other find jobs and places to live. And yes there are some pretty desolate areas in Wyoming. Like where I hang out...

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii370/Wyomiles/wyoland/scan0003.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii370/Wyomiles/Wyoming%20hiking%20fishing%20camping/scan0022.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii370/Wyomiles/Wyoming%20hiking%20fishing%20camping/scan0004.jpg

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii370/Wyomiles/Wyoming%20hiking%20fishing%20camping/IMG025.jpg

Come on up to Wyoming, we have lots of room for ya!

Offline Millboy

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Re: Episode 517-Free State Project
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2011, 10:31:49 AM »
I listen to free talk live alot, and found it funny that the host Ian knows about prepping and doesn't see the need for it.  Where as Sam one of his former co-hosts moved back home to persue the prepping lifestyle off the grid for the most part full time.  One would think that prepping and free state members would go hand in hand. 

www.freetalklive.com for more about the Free State Projects media wing.  (I mean that in a good way.  I love Uncle Jack and ftl.